it is a way of stripping away ego (something that could be in need around here after all the puking has been cleaned up). I have never had to do demeaning tasks, but i understand its purpose - so that only those who have no ego, and are really willing to sacrifice there pride are those that will be paid atenttion to - others will end up quitting.
You call it stripping away ego, I call it instilling a submissive, militaristic attitude. It's a pointless waste of time, I'm not a soldier being trained to obey orders unquestioningly, I'm a civilian learning how to defend myself. If I don't have commitment and I consequently don't learn how to fight that's my problem, I'm the one who wasted my money and time. Those instructors want students who are willing to sacrifice their pride so that they'll abandon all common sense and swallow any crap that gets shoved down their throats. There is a distinction between commitment and blind obedience and that is it.
Likewise! I'm not after some tai bo style mince around with some happy smiley teachers! I want teachers to train me hard and not treat me harshly for the sake of it. I started training in martial arts over 20 years ago. I'm not saying that gives me a ticket for an easy ride, I just want some good training. I find the ritual cultish organisations don't deliver. I trained at one place were even two of the instructors took their children to a different club because they didn't want them to go through what they had. Whats wrong with that picture?
timmy boy you are missing my point entirely - somehow i feel you are not really engaging in this from an open point of view - but to be honest i don't really care... you can continue to train how you like - i personally do not go to a sadistic militirising MA... and i agree with much of what steve morris has to say on the issue. however, i feel that you don't understand where this style has come from, and what it is really trying to achieve. I agree that there are cultish sensei's out there glossing over a lack of knowledge with harsh and idiotic training rituals - however, not all of these rituals are from without purpose or substance when used by a sensei with a knowledge of what they are looking to find in the students the put through the mill. i train hard and am pushed to my limits regularly, but i am NOT a customer of my sensei... i am his student, the moment a teacher thinks of his students as paying customers, or relies on them to pay his bills he must do something to endeavour to keep them, and much (not all) of the time this results in a watering down of his art form to keep students. I agree I am not asoldier, I am a civilian learning a civilian self defence - but the process of striping away ego, pride, and status from the people in a dojo, is an equalizer - all you are left with in these dojo's is your ability. It does not mean that you must be unquestioning and have blind faith.
OK then Haduken, I'm going to put it in as straightforward a manner as I can. Why do you need to get rid of the students' egos before they start training, if you're not trying to make them submissive?
I think it can counterproductive, I've seen fighters lose confidence in themselves and thats a bad thing to happen to a fighter! Whenever I teach things I talk to people as I would do a friend. I don't believe it damages the training in any way as it makes it no softer. In many ways its quite the opposite, they'll try and land punches on me were they wouldn't to a God-like instructor. I prefer people to push themselves instead of needing to be shouted at. It tends to get better results, you can't shout at someone 24/7. They need to take control of their own fitness!
well i guess you guys must have the only feasible and working teaching methods in the world of MA then huh? god forbid that anything else may have something to offer - espeacially something that isn't seen as part of the modern wave of anti-traditional training methods. Timmy Boy - if your ego is the only thing that keeps you from being submissive then you have serious issues. Ego is what prevents you from accepting that someone other than yourself has some knowledge worth learning - how are you meant to learn MA if you think you know it all already. It is not making you submissive. I am not saying this training is for everyone either - I don't train like this either guys! all I am doing, is trying to point out that the purpose of these 'old 'school' training methods, when used properly, has purpose and has value. I think an important thing to point out is, that when these methods were common place training was much more scarce and the arts much more secretive. pupils could not just ditch one dojo for another at a whim. If they really wanted to learn they had to make sacrifices. and these methods weeded out the undesirbles- not undesirable in terms of them not being good people, just in the mind of the instrctor, when generally the teacher wanted someone who would continue his style. It has been adopted very poorly in todays MA saturated world into a cultish scenario, where in many cases the people training are deluding themselves into thinking they are part of something grander than is true - but people should not over look the roots of where these methods came from and what they are trying to achieve - they just have to be adopted for the modern world... but how?
The only method? :bang: I now train the way I want, the way I wished I'd trained years ago and am somewhat bitter about.... I really think the old school methods have to be handled carefully. You need to think what will treating a student in that way benefit them or is it just abuse to see if they'll stay the course? Isn't there more constructive ways to do this? Haduken: I can see where you coming, and I agree there is good reason for some of the old school methods. And from my experience people actually like it for a couple of years, then a couple of years later they start questioning it, then they'll either get out of there of become part of the system.
I think those training methods used to be a way to make the students submissive when karate got to Japan, but then they only carried on using it because they were told to, and I believe it only carried on because the students (who are now teachers...) did what they were told because they were made submissive. I don't think many of the modern karateka really knew what they were doing. If you look back to Okinawa, the training there, was/is nothing like that and is much more relaxed and friendly. That's why I think it is a product of the Japanese brutality at the time karate was changed by them, and should not be continued in modern times.
OK.Now whilst I would'nt normally open my mouth against someone with that kind of extensive Knowledge I feel that in this day and age there are a lot of karate instructors who are developing the art by adding in street defence and other basic forms of self defence to keep it up to date and maintain its effectiveness on the street(and it iseffective against an untrained person).I'm studying Wado at the moment,and the in and out movement coupled with good footwork and evasive manovers would definitly buy me a few minutes if I needed it.However not sure if I'd need any space as I've caught a couple of my fellow students with the basic front kick and they have gone down like you know what.It is a very powerful kick and my sensei could probably spark out a raging bull with it. What I'm trying to say is that effectivness is anything that works and there is no way you can write of every move, stratagy and thought in karate as crap
Haduken, most people who start martial arts lessons don't think they know it all already. That's why they go. If an instructor sees a cocky prat in his lesson he can just kick him out. There's no need to degrade the rest of the honest students to weed out the bad apples.
Bring back the harsh training, thats what I say, bring back the beatings with wooden swords and pain. If you want to train easily or not brutaly or with out respect then train with those people. If you want to train technically or fitness wise then train with those people. If you want to train as a hobby then train with those people. If you want to stop wasting time arguing over crap, then just train with the right people and leave the clubs you dont like. Personally I train as a hobby , but if I were to be a proffesional fighter I would want to train with people like Steve Morris. Any way lifes to short. Find a club that suits your needs and stop arguing about crap.
. Did you never watch the karate kid, sweep the floor. As for " asinister ulteria motive" Mr miagi bought Danial son a car!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for "like in the army". Martial arts stands for :- Military arts, the art of war, and fighting, it originates from armies. Any way, all the best.
The karate kid was a film, and if you don't like us "arguing about crap" why are you reading this thread?
Haduken for the record Timmy Boy trains with me and has done for a few months so I understand where he is comming from. In our class I hate to refer to anyone as a Student of mine or for them to refer to me as Instrcutor or Student etc. It is simple mate, oye etc. There is no ego in our class and I like to think of it as our class. We all have a part to play and something to offer. Now perhaps I might have been training the longest but there is still other influences that can show me a better way of doing things. This is more the MMA way, its not right or wrong its 100% about what works for you and this is something I very rarely enounter outside of the MMA type circles. The menial tasks often seen in films can and are imposed on students but the few times someone has tried to MAKE me do these I feel it inflates there ego rather than drives mine out. And my reply was always pretty swift like - Your having a laugh eh? There is no need for it in this day and age and it should not be acceptable.
Because I thought the article would be interesting and I like discussing things. Is is really much of a surprise for you that people are debating the issues involved on a forum?
