Agreed. How old is that Consterdine then? I didn't really get what that had to do with sparring to be honest. The geezer hitting him hit like a fairy. And getting back to Higonna, I doubt his students would hit him anyway, although that is irrelevant to the topic.
I don't think what he was doing was intended to be related to sparring, it was more about self-defence. What he was showing was that the traditional punch does not deliver a great deal of power, whereas the so-called "double hip" (which some might argue is actually the more traditional) delivers more. Mitch
How old is that Consterdine then? I didn't really get what that had to do with sparring to be honest. In his 50's I think. What it has to do with sparring is that it is possible to find a balance between light contact and full contact (something akin to the sort of power Mr Consterdine was being hit with in that clip) without getting injured all the time. You may think the guy hit like a fairy but that was still enough power to wind if you weren't ready for it.
I think my main problem with semi contact is that the techniques themselves start to become semi-contact rather than just the contact level. So you get punches that land at the very extent of their travel that get scored. When really you need to be closer than that to really land with power. You see sport karate and TKD where a blitz backfist/reverse punch is "landed" with the attacker almost horizontal with the back foot off the floor. Now even if full contact were allowed that wouldn't land with authority because the mechanics have changed. To my mind my style of Shidokan has got the contact pretty good. In class it's heavy contact...but moderated depending on who's sparring. My instructor and I go at it pretty hard but the next round i might be paired with a beginner so the contact goes down. That teaches both how to take a shot and how to control your own power. At gradings the contact is harder up a level, not perhaps "full" but still heavy. Heavy enough to injure, KO, wind or knock you dow. Then once more at competitions the contact is full. Hit as hard as you can/want. That to me represents a progression and sets up a learning environment where the individual can be stressed and encouraged without getting injured all the time.
Jedi mind trick - watch how he closes the gap a split second before the punches are thrown. Also there's a fair amount of “power of suggestion” going on here. That aside, what irritates me most about this vid is when he says how it’s a reflection of how bad teaching in ma is and how karate doesn't work!!! - That's just not accurate, as the "foibles" that he claims to be in karate technique, originate from crap karate instructors who haven't been taught correctly. If you are taught crap Karate you will do crap karate - doesn't mean all Karate is crap. Gary
And.... Giving Karate a bad rap aside, I just don’t buy the "rolling" back of the punching arm - as if you were throwing something. This is exactly the type of movement I try to train out of my students. It's excessive and can be seen a mile off. As discussed in another recent thread, power generation (in terms of punches) is often focused on too much - to the determent of other key aspects of training. Gary
This isn't the case, in my experience. I'm not saying it never happens in some competitions, but it's not the way I've been taught. Once again, the foibles of "point fighting" get applied to karate.
In all fairness, it was the way I was taught (and not even just for competition), which is one of the straws that broke the camel's back and lead to me leaving my Shotokan dojo. I recently realized that, in all of our kumite drills, I was reaching full extension on my punches a half-inch from my opponent. I then realized his is how my instructor did it as well, and this is what I had done in a recent rank-test that I had passed (and received no negative feedback about that habit, even though I received other constructive criticism). I'm not saying it's a problem that is inherently part of light-contact fighting, but I do think it's a problem that has become very widespread in Shotokan in the United States (Shotokan in the UK, Brazil, and Japan seems to be a very different animal). Just wanted to toss that out. PASmith isn't talking about just one club here and one tournament there. Honestly, I think it's the majority approach to karate in the United States.
I went to a kumite session at the weekend with the teacher I train with most often acting as referee. He's been refereeing for a good 15 years so knows what he's doing. He ignored any strikes that weren't hard enough, any strikes that were at full entension (i.e. had no more travel when they made contact), any strikes that struck a glancing blow rather than a penetrating blow, any strikes where you upset your own balance or sacrificed positional dominance in order to get the strike. This is how I've always been taught karate - it's not about "tagging" the opponent. It's about gaining the upper hand. As he put it, you get waza-ari for a strike that could do real damage or ippon for a strike that could do lasting damage. You just control it. Taps score nothing and overextended tags score nothing. I really see the value in training this way and I don't see it introducing the "bad habits" I keep hearing about.
I think that's a great approach to so-called "light-contact." But only one out of the three Shotokan instructors I have had taught in that manner, and he doesn't teach anymore. I think that sort of approach to Shotokan is the rule in the UK and the exception in the US.
Are there no other associations or clubs you can join? If not maybe you should think about moving the family to the UK! We had a kumite session on monday. Started with taking kizame and gyaku zukis, mawashi geris and mae geris, and seeing where your comfort level was, then we did some speed/reaction training (who can hit the other person first), then we went in to free kumite. Technically the rules are nothing to the face, but the unspoken rule is if you see an opening take it. If the other person gets slapped, so be it. The level of contact was controlled (I came away with just a slightly bruised bicep) but it was certainly not none to light contact, as the stereotype seems to go. At the clubs I have been in this is the norm (not sure about the standing there getting kicked part though...). I've certainly been no where near a gloved up, boxed up pointy bouncy tappy club. My inkling is that these sessions are very particular training sessions.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Someone who only knows soft is only going to be able to use soft. Whereas someone who knows hard can make the technique soft when needed. Thanks for that.
That is my point. He did know it was coming. I think that clip was misleading on many levels. With the points fighting, I saw a video ages ago of Leon Walters (WKF former heavyweight champ) fighting full-contact and winning by KO. Also, I believe Craig Burke has done okay on the K1 circuit, and I don't know about now, but I remember seeing in Boxing News that Paul Newby went 4-0 as a pro boxer. None of these points fighters seem to have issues with hitting others, or indeed getting hit themselves. I think this whole thing that points fighting is completely non-contact and useless isn't quite accurate. I know there are clubs that do completely non-contact, but they seem to generally be people like GKR and those sort of groups, the sort that would never have the skill or spirit to fight the types of fighter mentioned above, and so shouldn't be used as an kind of example. I guess it depends on different levels of clubs and fighters.
Leon Walters [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qImXBLkK4_A"]YouTube- Leon Walters Pain and Glory Debut[/ame] Some very nice karate techniques (kizame tsuki, yoko geri kekomi etc) used to good effect.
It's really nice to watch karate translated in to different fields. Even if you're not in to full contact stuff, I think as a karate-ka you could appreciate what Leon was doing - and doing well! The interesting bit for me there was listening to the commentators say he needed to work on his leg kick defence. Ok, but he takes the kicks no problem because he has a solid stance, and on the third kick he knows exactly what's going on and just shifts his leg back a bit, just as you would to avoid an ashi barai. And again, the timing and the 'last punch' mentality comes in to play and serves him well. Lovely to watch kekomi and mae geri being used so well. And that's the thing. All it really takes for someone to be able to use karate kumite in full contact is to train those techniques in a full contact environment. There's no issue of translation in to other fields in my mind. Apparently this was taken at 20 hours notice... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL2DoQjA4t4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL2DoQjA4t4[/ame]
Brilliant - his heavy use of the gyaku-zuki was textbook karate. Nice find. Clearly on a technical level karate translates well to a different arena.
Maybe that Consterdine fella could let Leon Walters 'Karate punch' him and then say Karate punches don't work! Can't see him doing that somehow.
for the record, i wasn't praising consterdine or anything like that, i was just showing that being or not in one's prime has no bearing over one being able to take blows or not, and that it's perfectly possible for higaonna to do heavy sparring at least every once in a while
Helio Gracie was over 90 years old and still rolling with younger guys in this video. Age is nothing: you can be 25 with a broken down body or 75 with a great body, it all depends on how you take care of it. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQmz1YDVt3c"]YouTube- Helio Gracie[/ame]
