nice post (^^) siphus; i fully agree that falling into a 'sparring' mindset can be dangerous, but falling into any 'mindset' can be dangerous... a tale of my own... our org requires kumite etc as part (not all, just part) of the gradings from the upper end of the kyu grades and beyond. there are "safety's" imposed, which get less as the grades get higher, but as a general rule, it is no pads, no gloves, full contact to the body, no contact to the head (certain 'exotic' kicks to the head are permitted, the logic being if you don't see them coming then you deserve to feel them ) yes, its artificial in that respect, but it isn't designed to replicate the steet, just to put the individual under pressure as they have x-number of bouts, one after the other, with fresh opponents. The intent isn't to 'win' it is to display the appropriate spirit and to show that even when you are exhausted, battered and wanting it to end, you will still step up and meet the next opponent and still be capable of displaying that you have the will to go on. however, it has its dangers... i became aware last year that i was, in part, training for the grading conditions, not the realities of a conflict where my head was a legitimate target and also, my bag work was developing an unrealistic 'body shot' bias. I was looking to develop my abilities to deliver effective, damaging strikes to the rib-cage/abdomen, because that is where you need to be focussed during gradings. Then, about six months i got woken up. We have a guy who trains with us, fit, strong, late 30's, used to be a bit of a brawler, weighs in at about 16stone and runs his own removals firm, so he has real fitness, not what i call 'gym' fitness... the sort of fitness that comes from grafting for 10 hours a day as opposed to hitting the weights or the treadmill for an hour or so a few times a week. (in contrast, i'm about 12stone, sit at a computer for about 14hours a day, sucking down about 20-30 roll-ups and have the lung capacity of an asthmatic ant trawling home with some bags of heavy shopping ) It was getting toward the end of the session, he'd been going for his 8th kyu that evening, and i'd been working with him on his stuff before he got examined by our senior dan grade. he got the grade and I asked him what he wanted to do for the last 10 minutes of so of the class, he said he'd like to do some sparring. so we got some head-gear and some pathetic little hand-pad type things that do little to offer any protection from the force of the blows. I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of sparring (despite me defending it as an effective tool, if like any tool, its used appropriately) and freely admit that in a 'toe-toe' situation i'm not up there at all. He came at me and landed about five blows to head before i even knew what was going on. After the first minute when he'd backed me into the wall and continued to land more than a few, i was definately under pressure. Then i got used to the room spinning and started to find my feet, and caught him with a couple of cheeky jabs and the odd upper-cut, but he was still all over me like a rash, and he was really starting to rattle my head. My undue focus on training for grading scenarios had left me wide open to such assaults. I was getting shots in myself, but i was pretty annoyed with myself for developng such an obvious flaw in my personal training stratergy. This went on for between five and ten minutes before i'd had enough and the next time he got in close, i cheated and dropped him with a leg-sweep. He fell nicely at my feet, his head hitting the unforgiving concrete floor and he looked up to see me poised to drop my fist into his face if he'd decided to get up. I helped him up and appologised for 'fighting dirty' but freely admited that if we'd stayed within the boundaries of the sparring match, he'd have wiped the floor with me. He laughed and said it was cool, adding that he liked what I'd done, because he hadn't been expecting it, indeed, after knocking me round the room for the last five minutes or so, the last thing he thought would happen would be him on his back with me holding the advantage. So in one sense, this little tale does 'prove' the points that; 1. falling into a particular mindset and only training for those artificial conditions can be detrimental 2. despite being faced with an opponent who has a better 'punching game' game and is also fitter and stronger, appropriate use of taijutsu, combined with a dirty trick and some lateral thinking can be used to overcome the situation and leave you in control of the situation.. BUT. that evening was one of the nights from last years training that sticks in my mind as one where I really learnt a great deal about myself, my capablitites and my limitations. On one level, I was surprised I took as many hits as I did and managed to keep going But i was disgusted with my fitness levels and since then I've been working to get myself in much better shape, I'm not where I want to be yet, but I'm much futher on than I would have been had I not had seven bells knocked out of me to wake me up. But most importantly, it reminded me not to fall foul of routines and it inspired confidence in that, despite the fact I was getting pasted, I found a way to regain control of the situation and bring it to an end on my terms and when I decided, and in a way that didn't get out of hand. Now, you can tell me that these methods may not be the way to master the art of taijustsu and I would agree with you... however, i wouldn't have gained the insights into myself that I did that night unless i'd been through that experience and it for that reason that I feel that mixing 'some 'sparring-type' scenarios with other training methods can only help the individual understand themselves and their own body movement more deeply.
Hm... I cant read it all but I skimmed real quick (time to hit up the gym) and I agree with you. I dont believe that there is any WRONG way as a general rule. I believe this is a not so good way for ME to train, and a little bit better way for ME to train. Which is why I dont see wut the big horrah is... Everyone in here is completly different. I bet someone in the world has the ability to be the best fighter ever by just doing kata all day long. Peoples minds work differently. Everyones "truth" is different.
No, just that you don't train in Bujinkan or any other style of ninjutsu for that matter so I don't particularly care what you have to say. Personally I think you should mind your own business, and the way we train is none of your business.
PT, you are obviously free to offer your opinion but you are adding to the "it's my ball" type response. If Sonshu [and others] are so wrong in their approach, then feel free to tell them why!
The question was 'Ok I have to ask this question after reading one of the posts about how sparring can hinder your taijutsu development. Do some of you feel that we should spar in order to better our taijutsu?' Its posted in the Ninjutsu section aimed at practioners in Ninjutsu to discuss how it can hinder our taijutsu. Not to have to prove to people who don't even train in what we do, why and how 'what we do' now if i had posted in the MMA or BJJ section and then proceeded to tell them the flaws in their training i would expect that statement. 'You thought wrong, dude!' *** Gun flashes up, Bang, you fall down ***
Are you serious Saru?? And here I was under the impression that if you went onto the MMA part of the site and started to put them down they'd flood you with responses of "oh thank you Saru, thank you...you have enlightened us!" hardly
or if you ask them ' what do you do against 2 guy's?' they may say... 'oh we hadn't thought of that old boy, thanks for pointing it out. we will ask granpaw gracie imediately, and get back to you.' or maybe not.
Hmm how does sparring = bad habits Most of the People I see within the Bujinkan that think they are missing something by not sparring seem to be very insecure about their own abilities. Maybe this stems from never having been in a conflict (that is a good thing, unless your mind feels insecure about it !), or bringing their own misconceptions about what they think Martial arts are or should be to our dojo's and can't seem to loose this image. So that would be bad habit number 1, being on the wrong side of Kyojutsu ! If you approach our Uke Tori training with the right mind set you will learn to spar our way the correct way for us,we train this way every single day! Now correct me if I am wrong but is not "" Sparring"" two people playing within their chosen art/style/school ? So if your missing something it would be your fault not the styles. So that would be BH #2 ! We have been told by our seniors who also happen to be very very good at what we do and very very good at other arts as well and yet those who want to, or do Spar disregard the advice of these seniors, and think they know better. That would be BH #3 ! Sparring within our style is much like that other obsession that young men take care of with their hand. It drives their fantasies ! Represses their insecurities ! Massages their primal urge ! Makes their hand work really fast and their footwork really bad. They can't see however (with eyes tight shut) that they are just blowin in the wind and it amounts to nothing when trying to learn about giving life and love or interacting in the real world. :cry: :love:
Just wondering do you believe every thing you are told. That is not to say that some of the shihan that I have spoke with on here are dumb(not at all) And so you are going to tell me that Bill Wallace or Bruce lee is just jerking off huh. Because they believe that you should have both in your training. Hmmm!
Wrong again, because this thread is actually asking X-Kans what THEY think of sparring and how it effects THEM in THEIR training...if you actually bothered to read the starter thread you will see in no area where it asked. "What do others outside of our system think about sparring?" But enlighten us...I'm bored at work anyway. :cry:
(well for starters its in the NINJUTSU forum...but Here: Originally Posted by zenpokaiten Ok I have to ask this question after reading one of the posts about how sparring can hinder your taijutsu development. Do some of you feel that we should spar in order to better our taijutsu ? Now I understand it would have to be toned down a bit, and certain strikes would not be allowed, but remember sparring is freindly and you are not always trying to kill each other out there. You are working on your distancing, and timing for the most part. I know for myself it helps me out! Sometimes you question if certain things can be used such as shizen no kamae when facing someone that has martial arts experience. Or just how effective taisabaki is when someone skilled is throwing punches and kicks at you. How is a person going to get better if there training partner is always coming from ichimonji no kamae and allowing you to do techniques such as jodan uke or ganseki otoshi on them? Some of the techniques in the Kihon Happo are much harder to utilize when that person you are facing knows a bit about locks and throws. Dont rip me a new bunghole for asking. I am just wondering how sparring can hinder your development in taijutsu ? I am not talking about randori either. It doesn't always have to be spelt out to you, you know. Is that the best we have now in this topic...searching for a technicality to prove a point? It's a dead horese then.
That seems a very dangerous assumption. It is becoming more and more common to hear stories of people killing each other over dirty looks. So to train under the assumption that the other guy will have a sense of restraint is just not realistic. I train with the assumption that the other guy will stick a sharpened fingernail in my eye if I give him the opening. Maybe he won't, and I won't unless my life is in danger, but why assume he will play by the same rules? But that is not how sparring goes. People are free to leave their eyes and other vital areas open and not receive any harm. That is how they train. That is the way they will fight. It is like that advice a recently banned troll said about training to take a punch. For me, I would rather learn to avoid a strike rather than take it. Avoidance works against a punch or a weapon. It works whether the blow is meant to give you a black eye or crush your trachea. But, there is a shorter learning curve for learning to take a punch than in learning to avoid one. So if you know that all you will face are blows to safe areas and not face weapons, then learning to avoid a blow is actually wasting your time. Even if you train in both, you may find out that you used the 'take a blow' strategy when 'avoiding the knife' was the proper choice. I can point to a lot of people, some of who I know personally, who will tell you that they did not know the other guy had a knife until after the fight was over. So there is no way I am going to train myself to brace for a blow when I could be learning to get my body out of the way. But there are those that will train in something like taking a blow. They do it because..... let's face it, losing sucks. We can say that it is only for training, or that we learn more from our loses than our victories, but losing still sucks. Their need to 'win' seduces them. They end up justifying things like learning to take a punch like alcoholics find reasons to take a drink. Never the real reason- they probably don't even know that themselves. That is why I refer to sparring as a potential ego trap. Everyone I know who uses sparring says they are not doing it for the ego. I have never heard anyone, not even actors, say that what they do is because of ego. But from the outside, it is obvious that it is the ego that is calling the shots. When you take note of who 'wins' you have ceased to be anything other than a sportsman. As you train, so shall you fight. That is common knowledge. Saying that in a real fight you would protect your eyes after years of not worrying about it during sparring is just a case of denial. You do pick up habits from sparring- and those habits are not ones you want for the street. I can't believe that someone could spend year after year training to face a single person without weapons and then face a situation on the street with a different outlook. Just the fact that you train yourself to walk across the ring to meet the other guy instead of turning and running goes against my strategy of living old enough to lie to my grandkids.
Interesting points. I agree. I don't train to take punches, yet inadvertently I do, since I'm going to be on the receiving end of a punch/kick/strong block on occasion. I tend to look at it as, getting used to having things flying and coming at my face (punches/kicks) and resisting the instinctive urge to turn my back, flinch and generally go into protection mode (i.e. making myself as small as possible).
Just checking but would mystic warrior be one of the losers from Bullshido, timing of posts and the thread over there would indicate some similarities.
