Thanks for the responses. Interestingly enough,it's a recent visit to another school that settled this in my mind. I'm in L.A., and I visited Inosanto academy in Marina Del Rey. I've wanted to train with Guro Dan for years; I did some kali/JKD in NY 2 years ago, so, I love the art. I had a great conversation with the woman at the front desk,(Dori?) and she mentioned that they didn't spar. "you won't be beating people up here", she said. I think that Dan Inosanto is a living legend, and, his school is one of the top places to train in the USA, if not the world..and if the people around him don't think sparring is necessary..it probably isn't. every person is different, and, I DO still want some randori mixed in with my regular training..but clearly sparring isn't quite as important as I thought it was, at least, not at this stage of my development. as always..YMMV.
Dan is a big proponant of sparring. Its kinda one of the major factor in jkd. Are you sure it wasnt just the class you were going too?
Nope, I'd just stopped in to see the school and get the info on classes, etc. Dori specifically told me they didn't spar. I hadn't even brought sparring up, she just mentioned it. Very interesting.. Edit:, and, I'd told her I was interested in both JKD and FMA, so, there's no way she was confused about what classes I was interested in. I told her I'd trained it in NY a bit. I'm confused as to why she would say this, then,if sparring is such an integral part of JKD training.
That is very interesting.... I have a feeling dori may of been slightly confused as they definitely have sparring in the BJJ class at least.
Well, I'm seriously considering training there, so, I guess I'll find out..it's $168 a month for unlimited training, and $118 a month for one class a week. I just gotta play with my budget a bit to see if I can afford it..because I don't want to start/stop if I go here. If I'm gonna train with the likes of Guro Dan..I better be serious.
I trained at the Inosanto Academy years ago when it was in its original Marina Del Rey location. We did plenty of sparring in the JKD classes, sparred in Savate every class, and though we didn't spar consistently in the FMA classes we did have a few soft stick sparring get togethers. Guru Dan was also a huge proponent of sparring. Said it was a necessary part of training. My guess- and it's just a guess because it's been years since I've been there- is that the beginner classes are quite crowded and maybe they save sparring for intermediate and advanced classes. On the subject of Guru Dan, I also remember he had high praise for Hatsumi when either his name or the subject of minjutsu came up. I believe they had done some seminars together back in the 80s, guru Dan said something along the lines of him being a really intelligent and insightful martial artist.
Confused Lots of talk about arts that are nothing to do with this section of the forum. I think the JKD and maybe BJJ are the forums you seek. I thought this was the ninjutsu forum?
Part of this discussion about sparring is a desire for non practitioners(and maybe a few practitioners) for proof that it works. However there is one HUGE problem with that, and no matter what video that could be posted that showed sparring and other alive training methods it wont matter to the detractors. Case in point i showed a video along time ago from a now defunct BJK/BKR dojo that had them sparring. How ever the video got shot down because "it looks like bad mma". So even if the Taijutsu people post every video of every alive training methodology it wont help. Either its fake or not alive enough(which was what was said of the BJK Turkey randori video) or the practitioners dont look like they are doing BJK(which is what happened with the Makato dojo/JKD sparring videos over on E budo). To which they say why bother with BJK if it is only going to look like MMA when you can just do MMA? So no matter what this debate can never be settled because it wont measure up to the expectations of the detractors. I was told by my Instructor that a real fight will not look like kata but a look like a mess. If i were to run a dojo i would simply have people do judo like randori for all the throws and standing grapples. Then a separate way to spar the striking and defense. Then maybe once a month make one day a mma rules sparring day. That would go along way to giving people the experience they need to feel resistance. It was said by PR that you dont train with arm hangers and cooperative uke. However the kata are scripted and uke must loose. If your not sparring, how are you getting resistance and how often? Have you ever had to fight for a take down? Edit to add, I would be surprised if there was no sparring at the Inosanto academy. Wasn't BL a huge advocate of it
Isolation Randori in the bujinkan, in japan - [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvm-FGaDFT0#t=42[/ame]
This is not true, which is why classically in kata training the more experienced partner was the uke.
If ninjutsu sparring isn't recognisably ninjutsu then I would think that would be a valid concern. If you have a muay thai guy sparring a savate guy under kickboxing rules you will be able to see the different styles shine through. Savate won't look like a bad copy of muay thai. Both styles will be able to retain their defining aspects without giving up effectiveness. If savateurs had to discard their signature footwork when competing against Thai boxers then there would be concern either about effectiveness of the style, or effectiveness of the training. If sparring means a choice between discarding the principals of your art or retaining ineffective techniques and strategies then that raises clear concerns. Of course people understand that a ruleset will influence which techniques are used, but the core of the art should be able to shine through (particularly if rules are kept to a minimum). As an example, if your art contains kicks and kick defenses or punches and punch defenses then those strikes and counters should be able to be performed with the same basic footwork and body-mechanics that you use when you practice them in a non-sparring environment. As long as the techniques and methods are useful, Ninjutsu sparring shouldn't look like bad MMA. I've sparred against a TKD guy in an MMA setting, and I can tell you that the strikes he was using were obviously TKD.
It's like you've captured a unicorn on film, and we're all dissatisfied because it's the most depraved and ugliest unicorn we could have imagined. Inb4 "this is not ninjutsu"
You don't need to spar to prove that it works. If you spar with two proponents of the same art, unless they draw every time, what have you proven? If the art is great, they should stalemate each other automatically. If you spar with two proponents of other arts, unless one wins in every encounter, have you proven that one art is better than the other or that it works?:dunno: If two boxers box, one usually wins and the other loses. So by losing, does that mean that boxing is only 50% as an art? People who have 0 experience with fighting, no exposure to violence, and no competition record, seem to look at sparring as some Holy Grail to validate their beliefs in their art. They feel that they need something more realistic to help them deal with their own inner demons and fears of inadequacy that they mistakenly project onto what they are studying. Yes, some martial arts are ineffective, some are crap, some are only good for certain things, and some are better than others. Having said that, if you are looking for martial sport, you should train in things that are geared for it. If you want cultural or health related gains, you should do something centered around that. If you want to learn weapons, do a weapons based art. If you want self defense, you should learn techniques and tactics along with psychology and the related laws. If you are not confident in what you are learning, you need to recognize the real reasons behind those fears and deal with the root causes. Sparring should be done for the experience, same thing with competing, same thing for fighting(which I cannot in good conscience advocate because it is illegal but is part of growing up and does play certain social roles). However, there is nothing you can do that will guarantee your success in your next encounter, so you should know your capabilities, what you are comfortable with, and what is realistic. Being a great fighter, competitor, or guy who is fit and can spar for rounds will not save you if the guy you come up against does not want to touch gloves and go a few rounds(case in point, death of Alex Gong). If you want to learn how to protect yourself, the psychological and tactical side of martial arts is as important if not more so than the physical. If you want to be a bad dude who impresses the chicks with your charisma and physical presence, that is fine but comes from needs outside of the martial arts. True violence does not necessary look anything like sparring, nor certain martial sports. Ninjutsu is based on deception and using any means to make it out of a confrontation, so if you are doing something that looks exactly like kickboxing, or crappy MMA, you are not staying true to the art and its principles. Having said that, I'll address some of the points below.
Some of Nakadai Sensei's other "sparring" videos were posted and dealt with on other threads in the past(forget where). He is pretty much showboating with students and in my mind, this kind of "training" is neither impressive or worthwhile. Having said that, he does manage to show some principles of the arts in the videos. Sadly, the ones he doesn't show are the real important ones in the ryu that comprise the Takamatsuden so as an example of what kframe is looking for, they fall short of the mark.
Without making any comments on the video, I was wondering what the deal is with the belt. Is it a grey belt, or a dirty white belt, or just a blackbelt that has faded over the years?
It's a white belt in sparring, and a gray belt in hair. :evil: Just kidding, it's a faded black belt of course. Actually, it does look pretty gray. I stand corrected as well on his sparring videos, they are better than I first saw. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Gnuk91lLE"]æ¦ç¥žé¤¨é“å ´é’山支部Bujinkan Aoyama - YouTube[/ame] You can actually see his opponent using a very nasty "shuriken" guard, which at first looks like he is just waving his hands around in front of his head (like an Awa Odori dancer), but he is in actuality mimicking throwing invisible shuriken at his opponent. This is some higher level sparring going on folks. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GDdk8ZCV0s"]æ¦ç¥žé¤¨é“å ´é’山支部Bujinkan Aoyama - YouTube[/ame] another vid
