Solo Exercises for Aikido

Tamura sensei answers that in the same article:

...I remember thinking that it was ridiculous that we could not fight without O-Sensei. Even though I thought I had mastered a technique I wasn’t sure that it was the same way O-Sensei would do it. Half a year, then one year passed in this way. Although those who came to practice and my seniors taught me various points they all said different things. Since the ability of individuals to understand varies, when they saw a technique they probably all understood it differently. So I thought that it would be better to wait until O-Sensei showed the same technique again.
...
additionally he goes on to say:
I sometimes think back on what O-Sensei talked about at that time and guess that he may have meant this or that. I wish I had listened to him more carefully but it is too late now.

I am just glad that we have to this day, so many interviews like this, and with Osensei, and his own writings, and many videos of not only O sensei, but his direct students to draw from, not to mention our own teachers who have, at least for me, introduced me to the martial art of aikido.

 

Indeed, that is of course his opinion and one to be respected, it doesn't change the issue surrounding the topic of "ki" or yin/yang .. that it is ultimately unquantifiable and thusly open to an infinite amount of interpretation of it's use and existence.

 

Be that as it may, until my perception of your attitude changes, I simply will not respond to your queries or challenges. Until then, have a good day.

 

You just did.

 

It would be martial arts. Aikido is a martial art. It's no good simply training one perfectly formed kata after another. That's just dancing.

See the above answer. When students are engaged in a randori practice, practice is unpredictable. As a martial art Aikido needs to work out side the Aikido dojo in the real world. It's a perfectly valid form of training to mix "apples and oranges". Pears, pineapples and bananas are good too.

Aikido never had any formalised anything until the students of O Sensei codified what they were taught. They were all taught differently at different times. Hence some of the differences between the different major Aikido groups. So by your logic if I'm not training in accordance to a codified grading syllabus then my Aikido doesn't exist? That's just stupid. Tell a boxer he's never been trained to punch because he doesn't have a grading syllabus with a left hook and uppercut test.

I think it's quite sad when people think they can only train in accordance with a grading syllabus.

This is the important part. The power O Sensei had over his students was purely "psychological". Nothing more. He trained his students only to attack when they "perceived" an opening. When they saw none they didn't move and indeed couldn't move. Training kicked in and held them back. As Koichi Tohei realised, the mind has a massive impact on what the body can do.

 

Of course martial training has as a component a psychological aspect, however do you have a source that indicates that these highly skilled martial arts students he was training was psychological in nature?

Or would it perhaps be that through their training they might have also psycholoically realized that it might have been foolish to attack without perciving and being aware of a persons openings, which when they percieved these openings were not really there...he was gone.

So at which point did they abandon their psycological perceptions of what was taught to them to be a percieved opening, decide to attack him as he invited his students to do only to find out that psychologically what he was teaching wasn't applicable?

Sounds like a fairly absurd generalization made on behalf of many of his students who dedicated their lives to learning and trying to understand what he was showing them IMHO.

 

This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all. However if you're asking for a source that would indicate psychology played an important role in the power O Sensei had over his students? Yes I do. You posted it and I quoted it.

I stated very clearly the students could not attack O Sensei because they did not perceive an opening and their training would not allow them to attack where there was no opening to attack.

I recommend you give up martial arts if you're finding this difficult to understand.

They didn't. You need to go back and re-read your own source. It's clearly stated in your source, O Sensei would deliberately create openings for his students to attack. So the training remains in tact. Nothing is abandoned. The students hold back until they see an opening. It's simple.

Oh and remember "i" before "e" except after "c".

Well first of all I don't think you're particularly humble in your opinions. Secondly it's not a generalisation. It's an observation made from reading the source you posted and the source I posted earlier. As well as something I have learned from actual practice in my own study of Aikido. Students who have paid attention in class find it difficult to even initiate an attack when they do not see an opening. It's also common sense. Why would you attack anybody when you have a choice if you don't see that vital opening?

What I find absurd is the suggestion there might be something else going on. So if you have a better, more credible explanation please do share it.

 

Interesting...I went back and re read what I had posted, and nowhere do I find Chiba Sensei mention anything about Osensei psychological hold/training on himself or his students. Are you perhaps using another source other than the interview I linked?

And if you are using another source for this, would this then apply to the persons who were invited to attack him that were not members of his dojo and under his training?

And yet they did attack (at least that is what Chiba Sensei explains) these percieved openings and when they did, O Sensei was not there. So then they attacked when they saw an opening as a result of the training that Chiba Sensei and others recieved from O Sensei that may or may not have been pshychological in nature?

Interesting to note that other martial arts such as tai chi and kendo also train their practitioners to seek out, exploit, sense, and observe openings in their opponents and attackers.

I only find it difficult to understand that one may infer what it is you are suggesting from reading what Chiba Sensei says in the interview. Chiba Sensei spoke quite good english, and I'm certain if he wanted to use the word psychological or psychology as being "that's all it is," he would have done so.

Agreed, and nothing psychological about it. In fact sounds like pure, simple and actual martial arts training. Probably what his students were after.

Right, have to work on my spelling.

Exactly my point as well, aikiwolfie...I think we are actully in agreement here for once, understanding of course that O Sensei would rarely show these openings, and as such his students had to be observant enough at all times in order to find them.

What I gather from the article is that O Sensei created these openings at will, the students would eventually come to percieve these ever so slight openings, attack, and O Sensei was not there.

There are a wealth of interviews and sources in which O Sensei very students discuss concepts like yin and yang and ki. It is not my suggestion, nor my place to suggest after my 20 years (almost...) in aikido to contradict what even Chiba Sensei says when he uses the word Ki, or describes O Sensei as having an invisible force.

Nor is it my place to suggest that the majority of his students who also discuss such concepts would not know what it is they were discussing after 30, 40, 50+ years in their practice, or to dismiss it as something psychological when they clearly use different terminology.

All I can do is take these terms, understand how they are generally used in their day to day context and in applications not only aikido but other martial arts as well.

Here is a bit more from that article in which Chiba Sensei says:

Also, large, round, soft movements, as well as ideas like spiritual harmony and unity are important, but too much emphasis on them yields a one-sided or skewed approach to training and cannot be said to embody the essence of budo. Those things also tend to lack a certain degree of technical validity. They're more akin to leaves and branches, and as such perhaps they are better interpreted as being symbolic of the Aikido philosophy. They fulfill a role within Aikido's dual aspects of outer appearance and underlying reality. O-Sensei always said very clearly that those aspects of Aikido apparent as outer form necessarily have to be budo. He said, "The source of Aikido is budo. All of you must first master budo, but Aikido goes beyond budo." He also said, "From now on the general public does not need budo as such." He stated these things very clearly.So it is not just anyone suggesting that there is more, it is his own students suggesting there is more, and there seem to be quite a lot of them doing so. (Please note that concepts like in yo or yin yang and ki or chi are not the same as concepts that include spiritual harmony and unity).

And I also add this, just to show a little more of Chiba Sensei understanding:

It's an epochal way of thinking about budo, isn't it? Yes, but on the other hand what I fear most is when those people who have been excluded from traditional budo find a path in Aikido and begin to think that only their own way of doing Aikido is the real or correct way. They forget the severity necessarily involved in budo, rejecting it as "not part of Aikido." There are some people who think like this, but I think they are involved in a misunderstanding in which the leaves and branches are confused with the root source. It could be very detrimental to Aikido if the leaves and branches become the center. If this happens it could take Aikido a big step in the wrong direction.

Of course, it's also important to keep in mind that if the leaves and branches wilt and die, then so will the roots. So we really have to think of Aikido as a complete living organism, taking into consideration the overall harmony and development of its many aspects.
I think the facts about why and how O-Sensei created Aikido should correspond to our own pursuit of the art. To continue with the tree metaphor, rather than just gathering the fruits from the tree that O-Sensei into the leaves, through the branches, down through the trunk, and into the roots. We have to go to that source, otherwise we can't know the process that led O-Sensei to his conclusions. To make Aikido truly our own, I think we need to throw ourselves as far as possible into experiencing what O-Sensei experienced, both inwardly and technically, despite the difficulty and despite that we don't have his degree of ability.
I think what we would call a "completed" budo doesn't really exist. (The same may be said of philosophy or religion, or indeed of any human construct.) "My completion of my budo," in other words, completion on an individual, personal level, is as much as there is. O-Sensei completed his own budo, but that is not my budo.
Similarly, I can't simply give or transfer my budo to my students. At most I can invite them into my experience to have them use it as a guide to completing their own budo. In that sense budo is a rather solitary pursuit for everyone involved, because you can't learn, lock-stock-and-barrel, what your teacher has achieved. The various aspects of budo simply won't emerge for you in exactly the same form as they did for your teacher.
That's not to say, of course, that there isn't a need to establish basic teaching methodologies containing theories, doctrines, training methods, and so forth.

Anyways, just my thoughts (well, some parts are my thoughts, others are quotes from Chiba Sensei, and the last bit I felt important enough to add as it gives a nice surmization of Chiba Sensei approach and understanding to budo and aikido).

 

Aikiwolfie never stated that is was Chiba Sensei who said this.

Have you ever trained with Chiba sensei ?

 

Yes, I think it's fair to say Japan has had more than it's fair share of psychological doctrine woven into the very core and fabric of it's society over a very long period of time. In very specific terms and right across the masses up to the Emperor of Japan himself.

Let's see.. The Imperialism of Japan which saw it's Emperor as a living god a tenno or heavenly sovereign

.. Bushido which, although a set of core values, also included seppuku and the notion that is was "Glorious" to die in battle.

.. That notion carrying on through to WWII with the desperation of the kamekazi operations, and group based suicides of Japanese troops on the Island of Iwo Jima in 1945.

I'm genuinely at a loss to understand, izumizu, how you don't get this, it's a basic premiss of any martial strategy. You wait for the opportunity or you create an opportunity.

In Kendo we practice kakari geiko where motodachi creates openings to be attacked, this process develops the students ability to RECOGNISE mistakes and weaknesses in their opponent and exploit them.

At a low level motodachi keeps things simple..​

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-_XBcL_VhA"].[/ame]

At a more senior level things get far more interesting ​

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_mBWfdojIs"].[/ame]

Yes there's psychology in play - in a BIG WAY, aikido is ABSOLUTELY no different. Some of the PEOPLE however... well that's another debate.

 

I think this is a good topic for discussion, so please stay on topic.
First, I want to say that I found a lot of good informatio about aikido on this forum.
About solo exercise, I do a lot of suburi. Someon sad that it work in saiza, thats a good idea, becouse of spaice at home. Althought I do a lot of strength exercise. That includes push-ups, pull-ups, biceps etc. These exercises is not just for aikido, they are good for everyonewho wants to stay in good shape.They are not required bat they are good for the body.

 

Why not introduce yourself to those of us who are contributing to that knowledge, I see this is your first post so, introduce away..

Welcome to MAP !

 

Nope. I never mentioned Chiba.

I'm using your source. Read it again.

Indeed. As the source explains, O Sensei would deliberately create these openings. Now given that O Sensei created the openings in the first place, surely it's not too much of a leap of logical thinking to arrive at the conclusion that he hadn't let his guard down completely and was in fact in full control all the time. Knowing that he would be attacked the minute he relaxed his guard he'd raise it again as his attacker committed themselves to the attack. As the source explains, they were just too slow to take advantage of the brief openings O Sensei created for them. The phrase "sucker punch" comes to mind.

I don't know much about tai chi or Kendo for that matter. I have watched two Kendo students go at it for quite a bit. And they don't hold back. One might think those sorts of attacks would be quite "psychologically" intimidating. Unless of course one had trained to deal with such intimidation.

Then I recommend you quit martial arts if you can't understand what role the mind plays in knowing when to attack and when not to attack. Because frankly this is very basic stuff.

See the above answer.

Really? When did you suddenly change your mind? I don't think you actually understand what you're referring to here.

The is pretty much verbatim what the article actually said plain as day. Can you add any actual understanding to it?

At every stage of my training I have tried to understand what it is I'm actually studying. In fact I'd go so far as to say without understanding, study is pointless. Especially in a gendai budo art. You'd be as well to go play tiddly winks. How else do we learn if we don't understand?

So it was Chiba then? Or is this another article? Can you make your mind up or at least stop wasting my time?

They're not your thoughts. They're Chiba's thoughts. All you've done here is regurgitate something you've read on the Internet. And you don't even seem to have read it properly or made any attempt to understand what it is you are reading.

 

Welcome to MAP. Sorry if it appears we're off topic. It just takes a few dozen posts to explain things to some folk.

 

Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, that was my first post. I am from Serbia, and i trained aikido.
You are right, we need a lot of stories to explain something that takes years.Aikido is a broad area, breathing exercises, tecniques,exercises with waepon...Content area!
At the biginning I want to greet all of you and I hope that we will have a lot of discussion about Martial arts.

 

This is the source you quoted, aikiwolfie…

Chiba Sensei:

To which you added:

Which detracted the thread from the discussion of yin/yang and ki in the form of aiki taiso / solo exercises, and Chiba Sensei talking about Ki and Osensei invisible force(and you as the Topic Moderator decided to focus away from this aspect of the discussion and thereby introduce a new topic of discussion regarding psychological training):

How would you describe O-Sensei’s “energy?”

Chiba Sensei:
It was like being pressed by some sort of invisible force.

This is from Chiba Sensei, talking about invisible force (note…call it mystical mumbo jumbo, spiritual, aiki bunny or what ever else you may, from the interview…”the source you quoted” aikiwolfie in your post #325, it is clearly Chiba sensei mentioning this)…

And this is from Chiba Sensei talking about O Sensei Ki

…but we could feel him holding us fast with his ki.

And not even Chiba Sensei knows exactly what was going on, as he clearly explains:

I don’t know whether this sort of training was intentional on O-Sensei’s part, but in any case it did influence my technique in the sense that I became able to act in response to the movement of my partner’s ki and the timing of his movement before I had even thought about it. Of course I can’t do that all the time…. I wish I could, then I’d really be an expert, wouldn’t I?

What is Chiba Sensei saying here? “Of course I can’t do that all the time (feel his partners ki…which is in his view what O Sensei has done)…I wish I could, then I’d really be an expert, wouldn’t I?

Ahhh, yes…my source would indeed be Chiba Sensei, refer to my post #315, at least that is the interview I quoted here, and presented as such, and which you, aikiwolfie, quoted as "the source":

Interesting snip from interview with Chiba Sensei: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=251 (not sure how to make it any more clearer than that…an interesting snip from interview with Chiba Sensei…if you have any suggestions as how to make this more clear, please let me know either in this thread or via PM, I am more than willing to to do so.

Well, here…let me add again a quote (this time not from Chiba Sensei) about a Tai Chi guy who claims he learned Chi Gong from Chiba Sensei:

From my post #315:
Here is an interesting quote I discovered from a Tai Chi guy in his training with Chiba Sensei: http://www.dingleacupunctureclinic.com/taichi.htm

David Hankey first began the practice of Qigong in 1983 with Chiba Sensei as part of Aikido practice.

Then I would only have to dust off my keiko gi when I decide to take up martial art again…

Never suddenly changed my mind…we (you aikiwolfie, dave humm and myself...)have been talking about Chiba Sensei since about post #281, with Dave Humms introduction of Chiba not “talking in riddles”

To which I added that even Chiba Sensei talks about ki and an invisible force that O Sensei had: It was like being pressed by some sort of invisible force.
This is from Chiba Sensei, talking about invisible force (note…call it mystical mumbo jumbo, spiritual, aiki bunny or what ever else you may, from the interview…”the source you quoted” it is clearly Chiba sensei mentioning this)…

And this is from Chiba Sensei talking about O Sensei Ki:

…but we could feel him holding us fast with his ki.

I am not reading anything into this; (nor have I ever) unlike being able to infer a psychological aspect here…I have merely stated what Chiba Sensei has stated in the interview in which he discusses ki and “an invisible force.” I do not think he is talking in riddles here, do you?

In fact I have drawn no conclusions or made any inferences on what Chiba Sensei is relaying here in this interview.

Did you not realize that you even quoted yourself Chiba Sensei as "the source?"
I really have to apologize if you did not realize that the source you quoted from me in your post #325 was from Chiba Sensie in which I clearly stated:

Interesting snip from interview with Chiba Sensei: http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=251 (not sure how to make it any more clearer than that…an interesting snip from interview with Chiba Sensei…if you have any suggestions as how to make this more clear, please let me know either in this thread or via PM, I am more than willing to to do so. Really, if there is a way to make this more obvious for yourself and perhaps other mappers who did not realize we have been talking about Chiba Sensei in the interview you quoted as the source, by all means let me know

I then went on to quote Chiba Sensei, which you refered to as “the source.” That is why I asked if you were referring perhaps to a different source, one that had not been brought up previously, but it is clear that you were also referring to Chiba Sensei in your replys to me, even if you did not know you were doing so…

I haven’t regurgitated anything, nor have I since attempted to interpret anything, nor have I attempted to explain anything as psychological or any other dirivation of what was in the interview with Chiba Sensei...as I stated I merely posted what Chiba Sensei stated in regards to Ki, and Osensei having an “Invisible Force…” perhaps a bit of a riddle, perhaps mystical mumbo jumbo coming from Chiba Sensei here, but that is not for me to decide, nor is it form me to decide if it is psychological…

I merely included the interview for you and other MAPPERS to have access IOT read for themselves what it was that Chiba Sensei stated. I made no inferences, deductions or speculations as to what he might have been saying, wanted to say or could have said. There was no need to, as his words are quite clear, and besides who am I to try to guess what Chiba Sensei is implying? I only added the interview from an informative standpoint.

Did you, yourself not realize you were referring to Chiba Sensei here?

Please let me know so that I may make this more clear as to what it is you are talking about in your quotes as Chiba Sensei being "the source" if need be...

 

Aikiwolfie...

Time to follow some of your own advice mate...

Because seriously, this is farcical on ridiculous levels. I just don't know where to begin trying to make sense of ANYTHING izumizu attempts to write any more.

 

Are you perhaps having trouble with the part in which aikiwolfie refers to Chiba Sensei as saying:
Chiba Sensei:
It was like being pressed by some sort of invisible force.

This is from Chiba Sensei, talking about invisible force (note…call it mystical mumbo jumbo, spiritual, aiki bunny or what ever else you may, from the interview…”the source you quoted” aikiwolfie in your post #325, it is clearly Chiba sensei mentioning this)…

And this is from Chiba Sensei talking about O Sensei Ki

…but we could feel him holding us fast with his ki.

Or are you having trouble understanding the post in which aikiwolfie quotes Chiba Sensei

and then aikiwolfie apparently does not even realize he is quoting Chiba Sensei:

Because I'll let you know right now, I'm just as confused at aikiwofies postings regarding his quoting Chiba Sensei as you are at my postings trying to figure out who it is that aikiwolfie is quoting...I mean he says he is quoting Chiba Sensei as "the source" and then goes onto mention that he never mentioned Chiba Sensei, and is unclear about who it is that he is referring to.

I would sure like some clarification in this regard...is aikiwolfie quoting Chiba Sensei in his post #325, or is there some other source he is quoting that he has not provided a reference to?

Certainly I can't be the only one here on MAP wondering such things...

 

How about you do something novel.. like come to some logical conclusion or point to this waffle fest.

 

Solo Exercises

I totally agree with mikisrb. Suburi with the sword and jo are the fundamental solo exercises for training in Aikido. We can learn so much from them.
1: Keeping good Kamae
2: Elbows tucked under
3: Co-ordination of hips and hands

Ki - Ken Tai ichi at ahigher level, cut with your body, sword and intention as one powerful unit. Again it is fundamental that we practice in that manner at all times and all suburi exercises teach us this.

When we move to partners practices we can then test this spirit when under pressure.
As an aside we are always taught to maintain these principles while attemping to destroy them in the attacker.

Dave, I assume this would be a similar mentality to that used in Iai?
Gerry