From the South Florida thread... I think the reality is far less defeatist. Harder training = excitable people with little understanding of what they're doing, cranking on locks using techniques designed to go from nothing to redzone torque levels instantly. = less students because they're all out with injuries, and they don't come back for fear of repeat = no more training partners. I resent the idea that Bujinkan teachers are "in it for the money" as most of them have a regular job, teach in their off time, and for nominal fees. I further resent the idea that they would teach in a way that, in their own estimation, is "substandard" for fear of monetary losses. If a teacher thinks that "Hard Training"(tm) is the way to go, he would go that way. As I've said before, schools in the U.S. aren't so much schools as they are training groups. People open schools so as to have 1. regular dependable training partners 2. funding for a yearly Japan trip to get corrections. In order to have "Hard Training"; first, you and your training partner need to have reached a certain level of skill in ukemi. That way if things go wrong on either end, the other partner can compensate and all can avoid serious injury. and second, tori needs to really have a solid understanding of the techniques in question, their mechanics, and injury threat ranges. This takes more than a few months to build. As an aside I would love to have a list here of personal experiences people have had that support either side of this equation.
Well, obviously progression is neccesary but I thought the perception was that that progression to more "intent" and intensity was lacking? Maybe people trying to mime Hatsumi or people who feel that no effort is the goal but shorcut past all the resistant training it takes to gain the ability to effortlessly control someone who doesn't want you to are the ones being talked about, rather than people who understandably feel that snapping standing jointlock/throws onto complete newbies isn't ideal. Maybe some feel that progression to the more resistant training involving more intent would not sit well with those who prefer to shortcut to pretend effortless movement. Hell, maybe the teachers in question are the ones who fear losing that illusion. It's a fairly common thing among schools without a standard resistance training format.
Could I get you to elaborate a little more on "intent", I'm having trouble following. Due to my own shortcomings I'm sure..
I mean intent to succeed. Actually meaning to hit your opponent. Hunting tori instead of delivering yourself to have a technique performed upon you. Depending on the context and level of tori that may mean counters.
Well, what seems to be missing in many bujinkan vids on youtube, is uke's intention to actually hit tori. Most punches I see either stop short, or are not really punches but the presentation of a hand on a silver platter. This is a pet peeve of mine, and something that I watch for with beginning students from day 1. They don't have to punch hard. Especially in the beginning when their control and technique are rough. But they do have to attack with the intention to succeed, using correct distancing.
Yep. When tori can actually navigate, in real time, the situations he's put in by uke, then he can get down to learning to do things "live". Without that ability and experience anything he learns will be an abstraction.
Well they're welcomed in Sambo too, but we don't have that problem. The setting doesn't appeal to those types. They improve or find somewhere that makes them happy. If you find your school is attracting lots of lazy fantasists who easily crumble under violence, it's probably got something to do with what goes on in the school.
No, that's not what you were saying. You implied that was the case for all schools, his point was about individual schools. We smack each other around pretty good in my dojo. I couldn't care less what happens in other dojo because my self-esteem isn't based on what random dude #34 thinks about what he's heard about most Bujinkan dojo. I know plenty of dojo that do the same, they're not hard to find as you'll end up gravitating to similar people and groups when your at seminars or in Japan, creating a loose network of friends with similar outlooks.
I did not mean to imply it was the case for all schools.If I did then I am genuinely sorry. But really,that would have been a stupid thing to say.Even for a stupid person like me(this is my mitigation"And the fact that there are people who do train hard and well does not mean that everything is well")
When we say "hard training", are we talking about fighting eachother, or having difficult fitness routines as a part of class structure, or are we talking about approaching training with a serious attitude? I think Kurtka's talking about fighting eachother, George is talking about fitness regimen, and Count Duckula is talking about training with a serious mindset. I lean to the latter as far as my opinion goes. I think that if one approaches training with a serious mindset, strong intent, fitness, and eventual randori are inevitable.
No it doesn't. Any good teacher will train you hard and safely. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
Is where you argument falls down. May I refer you to the thread on QC . But on the other hand.You are quite right .
Once again it depends on what you mean by "hard". Also you're background is relevant. As much as I hate to be like "It's different in Bujinkan"... It's different in Bujinkan.
They train you to your physical and mental limits. And they do it safely. It's the same for training in any other physical activity, so I don't see why it should be "different in the Bujinkan." What I was getting at was that just because you train hard doesn't mean you are going to get injured. In fact you can train harder, if you train smarter and you'll reduce the risk of injury.
And then we could define "fit" and " fight" and "spar"...............and "good" and "bad"..................... Wouldn't you just know it.
