I can't believe people are arguing over the english spellings of Japanese words. It a bloody romanisation of some bloody squiggles!!! As long as it sounds similar we're alright!!! I apologies to anybody who takes offense to me calling Kanji a bunch of squiggles Col
Hey spelling of stuff has never bothred me or has it been somthing I have been good at FreaFord! Sorry Freeform!
I won't be starting training in this till Jan So would i be right in saying - it follows the same ideas as Jeet Kune Do - in that you learn several aspects of empty hand /weapons combat...and adapt what is right for you. Plus changing slightly - I know the idea is to stay on the feet, but how would you rate the standing and ground grappling of the art.
In the Goshindo, standing grapplings quite good, its no greco-roman but hey, gotta leave time for kicking and punching! Groundwork, a bit thin, its why I took up Judo and a bit of BJJ. Col
a bit harsh there heretic Geordie Boy, you do adapt the techniques, but the philosophy of ninpo is different to JKD.
I could not answer 100% on the differences Because I have never done JDK but I guess they are similar in making it work for you. Bujinkan Taijitsu could do with (from my own experience only here) more sparing to improve peoples stand up game. Stand up grappling is pretty good and the ground work is just touched upon. It is a good art though but you need to be able to make it work for you.
Me Full time 4-5 years and as I said its from my own experience however my instructor was 16 years + in doing so - Its not like I had not gained much experience in it, the problem is I felt it needed more sparing in it. Depends on what people views are of sparing - to me its critical and very urgently needed and this is a flaw in many styles not just Taitjitsu, when my school changed its Ninjitsu style I found the Bujinkan was a softer style compaired to the BBD training we had done before where there was more hard sparing.
amusing....I wonder how long all of you studied Martial Arts?... It doesn't matter anyway.... ANYWAYS.... Most of the Martial Arts are orignal but some are not. Ninjitsu for an Example... Some Ninjitsu did actually exist and was taught by true masters HOWEVER some Ninjitsu is just a combining of different Martial Arts Together. And Ninjitsu is not a matter of this and that, its how its used, why its being used, and so on. Other Martial Arts is the same for an Example a person can Master the WORST style ever and still beat everybody else. It not about how much you learn or how strong you are its about how you use it.
CelticAngel Welcome to the board. I will answer you question. About 13 years - it may help you to read peoples number of posts to give an idea on things discussed and look at there profile to give an indication on there experience and years of training. I dont think what you said is really that relavant and I would not put a slur on your experience because you are 17 years old or because you starter at aged 4. If you read other posts I have put on Ninjitsu you will see I have said many times its a good style and close to what you have put and the stand up grappling work is pretty good but the whole art needs to be made to work for the individual to be effective, this is somthing a few Taijitsu people I have trained with have not been too good at. However there are some who have made it work. I consider myself one of the latter.
First of all, I wanted to take the time to welcome heretic to the boards here at MAP. You might remember me from other forums. Maybe not. Either way, glad to see that you came here. I've always appreciated your posts as you're one to back up everything he says with firm evidence if possible. Secondly, I have to say that I definitely agree with heretic on everything he's said. From the posts given, it sounded as though we were talking as though various styles were nearly the same. While a hip throw may be a hip throw, the way one goes about such is not always the same. Concepts are entirely different. Granted, arts may contain some of the same techniques as Ninjutsu, but they are by no means similar. This is probably why there are so many other Japanese arts out there such as various forms of Karate-do that will just plain mess up your taijutsu in Ninjutsu. Lastly, I wanted to comment on the idea that Ninjutsu somehow needs more sparring. I am still puzzled as to why this assertion comes up all the time. Many dojos do randori at times, but why the need for sparring? The Japanese don't spar during their classes. Even my instructor (Papa-san) doesn't include sparring in his classes. Why? It isn't needed to obtain good taijutsu. Maybe it teaches some people how to get used to taking a hit and keep going, but it doesn't enhance your taijjutsu in my opinion. There are just too many great instructors out there who don't spar as part of their training for me to believe otherwise. If Papa-san can move the way he does without having sparred to get his skill, then that's all I need to know. I did enough sparring in my TKD days and it never did much for me anyway. To each his own, I suppose. Just don't go around saying Ninjutsu is lacking because of many dojos not sparring. Instead, just say that it was lacking for you. Also, the groundwork in the art is not just "touched upon." It all depends on where you train and what concepts are currently being covered. Assumptions are not appreciated here. Comments like this should be preceeded by "at my dojo" so that no one thinks that every dojo is scarce in the groundfighting department. One more comment... Pertaining to the art needing to work more for the individual... How is it that Ninjutsu does not currently do this? People can adapt this art to themselves no matter who they are. Even those confined to wheelchairs have been able to study this art so to say that it needs to be more adaptable is pretty ridiculous. Lemme know what you all think. Jaa, mata.
Someone asked me once what do you need to learn ninjutsu? i answered nothing a naked man can learn ninjutsu just as well!
thankyou again Silent for reading and writing my mind, you are a very devoted and gifted individual never change!, if you do change change for the better!
SilentNight I think you may have miss read my posts a little. I have said the art needs to be made to work for the individual and it is down to the student (As we all are) to do this, also it is one of the best arts for getting to this as its slightly less structured than many in it must be done this way only. So we agree on this point. Concepts for Ninjitsu to me are if it works - then it worked! this is the same for a hip throw and I try not to make things to defininigly different. For exaple I have used my Ninjitsu training to have competancy in Judo/Sombo/Aikido/Jujitsu/Karate and other similar arts. This was the only point I was trying to make in that I was saying it was adaptable. The point of a martial art is that is should work and the flexability in the style is an advantage. Sparring for me is like live blade training - it only serves to take the shock element away which is how many people lose fights. It is important and I DID SAY (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) earlier in the post. But from my experience all the Taijitsu people I have sparred with whilst doing the art I have had little or no trouble dominating because of my Kickboxing/Karate experience before (this is striking only) and in grappling Ninjitsu helped me take the silver medal in the south of england Sombo Championships and with my MMA training. It is an art I do champion but have my reasons and experiences where I felt it could have more things added to it when I was learning. However it in understandable why the art get a bad rep when you see books like "Taijitsu Close Quarter Grappling" by Omoto Saiji which is a shocker! Guys don't miss understand me as the art has never let me down on the street - just that I felt there were things it lacked or needed to add and Sparing was the main thing.
I have not been able to view this as yet But I am told it is very poor and is getting some serious flack. I have seen some dodgy Ninjitsu demo's and scene some dodgy books but perhaps we can see and understand why the art comes under critisim. www.winjutsu.com/source/s...sumi06.mov
I have viewed all these clips, and having been on the receiving end (and having done them) myself, I can vouch for their effectiveness. The problem in viewing these clips and basing an opinion on them is that you are viewing 5 to 10 seconds of an Art that is over a thousand years old. It would be like me saying that Chess is dull and boring based on watching 2 old guys in a park playing for 5 seconds and then moving on. You never get to appreciate the deeper strategies and setups, moves and countermoves that makes Chess exciting to a Chess player. If you base your perceptions of any Art on a 10 second video clip and the prejudices of your own Art and background, then of course you will slag it. Sonshu, based on your own experiences, you have said that Taijutsu works for you in some cases. Is it not possible that your lack of finding an instructor that was interested (or even proficient) in ground fighting Taijutsu that has prejudiced your view of it? My personal experiences have been nothing but positive. On my feet or on the ground. Of course I have been fortunate enough to train with a large variety of instructors and Budoka. What I find lacking in one, another one will more than make up for. As for the whole sparring debate, I personally find no use for it anymore. I did it in my younger days in Tang So Do and Tae Kwon Do ( and Judo, White Crane, Boxing, Pa Kua, Arnis and Freestyle). Nowadays, I know that my Taijutsu is good enough and my Kihon solid enough, that I can handle myself if and when the need arises. It has and I have. The "street" has been my forge, but the Dojo was the anvil that shaped me. However, having said that, if you are a competitor, then I can see where sparring can and will make a diffference in you and your skills. In which case I whole heartedly recommend it. But in the Booj, you will find very few that follow that path. It just isn't why or what we train for.
Kurohana Thanks for your words and I know you and I have had a similar discussion before. I have trained under 3 instructors the highest an 8th Dan and also Brian McCarthy who is the Head of BBD. I found the BBD to be the most effective version (again stresses for me) and I guess this is because Brian was the Irisih National Kickboxing Champ so his take on this is from that. I do a lot of ground fighting now and none of these instructors have really put much on it. Kurohana - what ground fighting do you do? Sparing to me is critical as I have said so you can learn to spot the openings and its live, so then you can make your move. As I have said I do defend the art and have been able to make it work for me as the style of Sonshu I train is a hybreed style with many Ninjitsu parts at its core. The camera angles on one Taijitsu demo I saw were not too good and the intricasies were not very visable as its all above the waste stuff but if this is the case it should not really be shown as it looked shockingly poor and it was clear to see how the art comes under so much fire with poor demo's and books out. Some books are valuavble tools but some need to be burned.
Ground fighting? What ever works. The few times I have had to go to ground, it has always been my solid grounding in the Kihon that have pulled my a$$ from the fire, so to speak. Remember, Kihon (or any other part of Taijutus/Ninjutsu) is not about memorizing set techniques (shameless plug: read my article on Kamae) but rather understanding how the body works and making it work to your advantage. It's a matter of distance, timing, balance, knowing the nerve/pressure points, knowing how the joints work (physics/mechanics) and doing whatever it takes to win. And yes, I agree, some books are valuable and some are worthless. However, I am all for leaving the worthless ones out there. Why? Because, if the guy that is causing all the trouble at the next gig I work has learned his Taijutsu from a book, well hey, my job is half finished, isn't it?
Kurohana True, the points I am merely trying to make are a few simple ones: 1) Taijitsu can make you competent in a number of other styles as I listed them and it has for me to which I am greatful. 2) Its ground work is just breezed over and it does give you enough to offer a basic level of defence on the floor but it is not a real aspect of the style. Well not to the level I now know on the floor I am much better by the MMA route than I would have ever been on the Taijitsu route. It is not really somthing that is key to the art and people would gain lost from cross training with some ground fighting arts for a more rounded route if thats what floats your boat. 3) Sparing is key especially if you ever need to use your skills, eg door work as its the simple skills that are so important for a real life situation. Like what I said about live blade work. 4) There are many tradionalists in Taijitsu the will argue that a hip throw (using this example) is different in Ninjitsu than Jujitsu, however to me I am a simple guy and if you throw him and it works and it was over your hip than its a hip throw and I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of why its a Ninjitsu throw and not a Jujitsu throw. To me it works and when I do a hip throw in a Judo/Jujitsu/Sombo/Aikido etc its still to me a hip throw so please don't miss understand me but I am just a simple guy and there is no difference to me because of the cross training I have done. Freeform seems to often be close with me on this from his own cross training. All in all I am a defender of the style but I have seen outside and have seen both better and worse things - also people who have made many false claims about what the style offers, as I don't do it anymore I guess I am a little too honest at times.
