I've been modifying my Yang form for a while now and trying to perform a more upright frame thats allot tighter with more internality. My reason for this was the personal belief that deeper stances are not realistic when it comes to having to use Taiji in self defence applications. I wanted to be able to move from as natural a stance as possible and decided to do what most Taiji Masters I have ever read about, do; that is the longer you train eventually your form looks very upright and natural. Makes total sense to me and feels a whole lot more practical. I have also become more interested in practical applications than form work and have been really breaking down all the movements in the Yang forms to find the most useful, realistic movements in their self defense sense. I'm not against borrowing techniques from Bagua or Xingyi or anything else and applying it within the Taiji frame work using those principles. In any case I'm enjoying an evolution of my own kind which lead me to this analysis of the move, Snake Creeps Down. I have several works which contain Taiji applications and it's interesting to note that only one of them shows an application for the creepy snake getting down that I would ever come close to using. The others present the movement as a wishful thinking application thats more likely to get your head kicked in. In most of the works including Yang Jwing Ming's books, Snake Creeps Down is a defensive movement. We all know what it looks like so I'll tell you how most books or Masters have it applied. The attacker strikes with a right straight and has their right foot forward ( A girl might step with their left foot whilst striking with a right though ) - the defender ( Taiji guy ) catches the right hand with some type of block with their own right hand, drawing it down and diagonally across the attackers body. Taiji guy then wraps his hand around the attackers right wrist and simultaneously drops ( pulling attacker forward and off balance ) down into the Snake Creeps down posture. It should be noted that the Taiji exponents left straight leg is to the left and outside of the attackers right leg. At this point the Taiji exponents forward left hand is supposed to reach forward and strike the groin. Now there are two other moves in the form which are groin shots. Punch to Knee which is really Punch to Groin and Needle at Sea Bottom. Of the three I'd say the last two are passably practical but Snake in the application I have described above is too elaborate and risky in any situation that would present itself on the street. I would question why anybody would respond to a a straight right or a kick with right leg by crouching as in SCD and attempting to punch at their groin from that position. In other words why would you put your head closer to an opponents knees and feet where it can get kicked good and proper? Another thing is that the SCD posture in the traditional form is not that stable when dealing with an upright opponent. Lets say you successfully lead the opponents right arm, pluck it down and pull them forward, the only method at this stage of controlling your opponent is with that right hand when you are in a defensive low to ground posture. All it would take for any self aware attacker is to simply go with you and run right over the top of you, kneeing you in the head as they do it. The whole thing is ungainly and unweildly and totally impractical. If anybody really believes this move is useable in this application I'd like to suggest some health insurance before you try it. Now, having said all that, I did find one example of SCD that seems to have a decent practical use that follows the principles of Taiji and interstingly enough the inherent San Shou Kuai Jiao therein. The only person to get it right from my perspective was Tim Cartmell and he shows the move, I believe, at his website in a funny little animated three frame pic. The execution of this move seems to me to be the way the move ought to be performed in the actual Sets! So in Tim's version the attacker comes on with a left hook or a straight left ( this is the same for right or left but SCD is always performed on the right leg in Taiji forms - unless you mirror your forms as you probably should! ) and the Taiji guy blocks in a typical inside peng-redirect to the opponents left. Taiji guy then sticking to the opponents attacking hand, slips hand over, gripping the attackers wrist, and quickly steps in with left straight leg sliding between the attackers legs. Taiji guys right hand is still holding attackers right hand behind him and away to the rear as in the position of the right hand in the traditional SCD with the Crane Beak. Taiji guy then crouches on both legs, somewhat like a squat and uses the left hand to quickly sweep upward between the legs to simultaneously strike the groin of the attacker and lift them into a throw. All of this happens as one simultaneous movement and must be instantaneous before the attacker figures out whats going on. The throw is then performed back and to the right, so the direction would be back to where the defender has just come from and it would look similar to picking up a huge garbage bin and dumping it from left to right ... on it's HEAD! Now from my analysis of Shuai Jiao, this is a classic throwing technique that is a part of the Taiji set. Sadly though, throwing and takedowns in Taiji are rarely taught or practiced and it seems to me that over the years the preference has been to accentuate a non throwing technique such as the defensive kick or punch deflection to groin strike from a very low and precarious position when demonstrating Snake Creeps Down. The difference is that in the second technique of Snake, the Taiji guy stays standing with a strong and positive stance, ie without risking their root. The straightening of the left leg is only a very brief entering technique to quickly slide between the attackers legs and then assume a horse stance type squat. Again, for a very brief moment as you prepare to strike groin, lift, turn and throw the attacker on their head. So at the end of the day when I look at the practical side of my form work, it seems far more correct to perform SCD as an angled standing squat not too dissimilar from a horse stance. Other issues besides practicality are the fact that many people suffer a great deal of knee problems and damage and pain from performing the traditional SCD. It would seem worth the pain and agony if the practical application called for such a positioning of the body but in my humble opinion it doesn't. perhaps a slight re-evaluation of some of these moves might lead to a more combat practical and health practical set of forms and postures? These are my own personal thoughts but I welcome any additional views or opinions. Thanks, Syd.
Great post, and I agree that in theory the Tim Cartmell move would be practical. Remember that as the frame gets smaller and smaller, the movements will naturally tighten into that kind of step. But snake creeps down is one of the moves in the form that you should probably emphasise as much as you can. It trains physical flexibility as well as your balance, and the qigong aspect (although I can't recall what the qigong of that move is focusing on). Yeah, it puts a lot of pressure on your knees, so that's another reason to emphasise it as much as possible while you're young enough to do it properly. The moment your knees start to really complain (injury type complain, not discomfort complain), that's when you should vary it. There are certain moves that don't seem practical in the form at all (".... single whip..."), but it's the health/qigong/balance/meditation/breath control/conditioning as well as the application you're training at any time.
Thanks. I don't think the frame getting smaller helps people understand the impracticle nature of performing Snake the traditional way though. I understand your point but without making the mistake and finding out the hard way, or doing further research, people would never know to apply Snake from the form as a throw from the traditional low position. I think it's pretty important that we clearly define the Qigong aspect of the forms and the Martial applications. But guess what? They are actually supposed to be one in the same. Some postures in very small part are claimed to have no application and were said to be signatures of a particular style ... Yang's is one such. But I think it far more likely that some applications were not fully transmitted or were too internal and transparent for some later pracitioners to decipher. I'm actually changing my mind about that and now I don't really think it is particularly necessary. I am easily flexible enough to perform Snake in it's low position and have it balanced. The Qigong benefits from this posture are not unique and can be gotten from many other movements in the forms that are also practicle from a combat perspective. Balance and flexibility are easily attained from other practicle moves such as Golden **** stands on one leg, any of the draw the bow kicks and the side kicks which require both balance, timing and flexibility as you open up the hips and waist and they have all their combat and qigong aspects intact without potential damage to knees. People over performing these moves allot during youth can be the cause of knee problems later on. My point is that if the move is impracticle and can potentially lead to injury and another more practicle performance of the move can be expressed without potential injury then this would seem preferable from my point of view and sensible at that. The traditional posture appears flowery to me and unnecessary ... sacriledge! The Qigong benefits of that posture can also be gained throughout the form in other postures. I hear what your saying. Infact Single Whip has a very practicle combat application which is well documented in every work on Taiji I have ever seen or owned ... all the moves have combat applications. It's funny because it's a case of which came first, the chicken or the egg? In other words, the combat or the Qigong? Qigong can be performed in any number of ways, millions infact as long as you remain sung and breath. I did a one hour Qigong session on Sunday with Sifu Connie and It was totally different from any Qigong I had ever done before. The principles of the way I approach qigong remained the same and I had intense Qi sensation during the entire hour. My point is that by remaining sung and relaxed during the expression of Taiji forms we are able to use Taiji as a Qigong and adhere to the principles of connectivity for combat in our slow practice also. You can also practice virtually any CMA slowly and using the principles of Taiji and correct relaxtion/breathing develop Qi and feel Qi. The two in Taiji, qigong and combat forms are entwined. In other words the qigong should be practicle and effective as should the combat applications. I want to practice forms that are both qigong effective and combat effective and limit flowery movements or postures which have no real effective value. In some ways I think it's natural for any martial artists to reach a stage where through analysis of a set they begin to devise their own forms and a set that suits their sense of practicality. I can easily perform the Yang forms the traditional way but I think I want to begin creating my own forms from a combat ready perspective. I am a long way away from that right now but I certainly feel that the low stance of Snake Creeps Down in my case will be adjusted to the correct combat posture. I see no advantage from the traditional low stance either combatively or qigong wise, add to this the high potential stress on knee joints. To get back to the question of Single Whip? Take your pick of apps for that one. Keith used to show that one in class from time to time and it's pretty well known. It can be a hooking/plucking defense for a left handed strike, hooking away with the right hand and stepping into the opponent with a cavity press to various points in the chest with the left hand with your nastiest fajin! There's allot of Chin Na apps for Single Whip also. The above is one of maybe ten different apps for that move.
I agree that there are a lot of postures that have applications from la-la land. You are so unlikely to come across a situation where you could use them that you are left wondering why they are practiced at all. The answer seems to be for the exercise. Or the qigong, which for me is the same thing. Personally I only use the 'applications' for the visualisation side of the form. I have seen many different approached to SCD and also like Tim Cartmell's approach. For me SCD is about letting yourself squat and not fighting against it. I like the stretch it gives. Speaking of Tim Cartmell, his Xingyi Nei Gung book os a good one for stretching exercises for your IMA practice, as I'm sure you guys know. I also agree that as you progress in your practice you start by tring to make everything low and expansive, but as you develope the need for this decreases, so your posture rises and you movements become more economic. Great posts really interesting.
on the subject of knees, I like to think they are my friends, so I'll treat them well. If I am doing my form and my knees are feeling 'weak' then I'll not go to too much of an extreme, when they feel strong, then I'll let my posture go lower. I like my knees and I want them to like me. I want us to grow old together gracefully. So if my knees speak (discomfort) I'll listen and be nice. That way, when I'm going to the post office for my pension, I'll be able to walk there.
There's not as many as you'd actually think. I'm certainly not trying to be an iconoclast for the sake of it and nobody loves his Zhang Sang Feng more than me, even though he's Santa to most people. I'm just trying to be pure about the intention of the move. It may well be the case that SCD was performed that way to hide the real martial application. But as I went away and thought about this a bit more I remembered something that I might need to go and check on but it hit me like a bolt of lightning. I think Wu stylists peform their single whip in the very same stance that I am talking about which may infact have been their application for SCD also! The Wu's learned their Taiji from Yang Lu Chan and the top Wu student was one of the Imperial guards for the Manchu. It has often been said that Wu Style shows it's martial applications more openly than Yangs. I'll have to check into this now and see how they perform their SCD. The Wu's perform Single Whip nearly the exact same way as I am suggesting to perform SCD. Interesting...
Ok, so I just checked my resources and looked at the pics of Wu Jian Quan doing the form and he goes way down when performing SCD, infact deeper than most Yangers I have seen. But, the performance of Single Whip is very similar to how ( Not quite the same but close ) the combat application for SCD ought to be performed as a practicle throw. The research goes on. Oh and here's a piccy set for Nzric showing a typical Single Whip application as defense. Pics of Sifu Cheng Tin-hung.
Hi Syd, What I meant by la-la land applications, is that although the application might work incredibly well, the amount of times that it will come up in a fight would be incredibly small. Doesn't stop them from being pretty cool though. They are also an excellent aid to visualising the way in which the move is to be performed. One possible application in single whip is that the back of the hook hand is used to strike. Ok for visualisation, but poor for application as it's likely to lead to a broken wrist. But with a little modification it would work fine, i.e. using a fist or open palm. I like applications for improving my form, but I don't like them for training martial ability as it can lead to a set response that can be doomed to failure.
Great to have you back... we need more of these kinds of discussions in the forum! I suppose we have to bear in mind that the students used to practice every day (with their master standing beside them with a big stick), they probably came from learning a hard, external style from the age of about 4 or 5, and they were in good physical condition because of the rural life (not to mention the fact they were little guys!). Their idea of a healthy/safe posture would probably be different from our definition, even if we're in good physical condition ourselves. Definitely, I take it back, but single whip can be a difficult one to master in a real fight. There are still a lot of postures without much martial "sense" (e.g. ... plum blossoms) Yep, but then again we should also trust that there may still be aspects of the movements that haven't been revealed yet. The moves in the form are there for a reason, so although it's a good idea to vary it, you shouldn't completely discard the low SCD. I wish I was still in Sydney, then we could try the application of SCD that you were talking about! If you do get the chance, remember to practice against a sloppy/uncoordinated punch & step - cause that's probably what you'd have to counter "in the street" (boiiiii)
Hey mate, Well actually I have found that 70% of the applications are totally practicle but you need to apply the Taiji principles as well as have knowledge of timing, distance and speed as well as flawless technique in order to make them work for you. The only way you can get this working is to find partners or a partner and work on it as often as you can. Anticipation and eagle vision are two other factors that are essential. As a Taiji fighter you are essentially a stand up grappler in close quarters. If you study the form and the postures you will begin to break down the combat side into three important sections. Chin Na - Locking, breaking, sealing joints. Shuai Jiao - Throwing, Takedowns. Striking - Cavity press, point striking. The greater majority of Taiji's combat applications actually reside in the top two and yet they seem to be the least trained. These days I don't think there are many Taiji teachers who are masters of all those three curriculum so the art often gets taught in basic drills but without the development into open sparring and the all important sparring and then analysis of the principles and applications across the board. You have schools out there that simply focus on push hands only and suggest that this is all you need to defend yourself in Taijiquan! Other schools have more an emphasis on striking but know nothing about takedowns or throwing. I think it's really missing so much of the total strength of Taiji and leaving it really incomplete as an art if all of the above are not taught, practiced and studied. I know my old school was very much a striking based curriculum and throwing or Chin Na was never discussed ... though I always wanted to. The majority of attacks you are likely to encounter on the street are taken care of within first third of the 108 Yang form! I would confidently use each of the techniques in the first third to defend myself in a real situation as I have trained them for their efficacy. Last year a few of us used to get together in the park from this forum - ( Adc, Nzric and myself ) - to work on applications. We found out very quickly that within the 6 or 7 variations in moves like Brushing Sparrows Tail, Peng and Wardoff they were all deadly efficient. On many occassions you had to be very careful with the moves we practiced because of the high potential to harm your partner once you had the move sped up. Absolutely, thats what they are there for. The crane beak in Single Whip should not be used as a striking hand at all. It is implicit in the positioning of the arm ( to the rear ) that this hand is a controlling hand only and not for striking. A hooked hand which passes to the rear of any Taiji stance is always a controlling hand or hooking hand. In some moves from the Old Yang Style set the beak hand is used to strike but this is a very specific type of strike and it is clearly a forward moving strike and downward on the chest cavity ... it's an ugly stomach and liver point strike for shock. The strike should also be performed in a very specific way. While you have the crane beak hand you are not striking ( as some people are apt to suppose ) with the mount of your wrist bone, which would lead to a broken wrist, but you are striking down in a glancing fashion with the tips of your knuckles. That kind of strike is the only way to get the proper direction when striking those particular points with the proper force. If you went in with a straight palm strike or a Taiji punch you couldn't strike those points in the way that specific move wants you to. Thats the reason for it. With single whip the context of the Crane beak hand points to the kind of use it has which is not striking but a chin na wrapping, sticking, leading, controlling technique or else hooking the attackers hand away, hard, which opens the attackers body up to a nasty fajin with the leading left handed palm strike to the chest using liver or stomach points as the target. This is where my mate Rick Bauers vibrating/cotton palm strike would be devastating! You should be able to train the applications and know all of their meaning and uses without becoming locked into a response. If a Taiji fighter doesn't learn to break down the applications, which are the fighting set, learn them , train them, apply them in free sparring, then how do you expect to use Taijiquan for self defense when trouble does come? Push hands are only drills for teaching body dynamics as are many of the other drills such as Da Lu etc. The idea is to learn the applications and then subconsciously digest them so that when trouble does come you are trained enough to react automatically with any number of natural responses that come from your Taiji combat training bag. If you have nothing prepared or trained in that bag then you have nothing to work with but intuitive response without direction ... that is far more dangerous in my humble opinion. I would ask, if not to learn and train applications which are the inherent methods of combat within Taijiquan, how do you personally train martial ability? Good chat lads, Syd
I have a big problem with the teachers who take the pov that a hooked (and upward pointing) hand to the rear is actually a finger strike under the chin of another attacker coming at you from behind. There are actually a lot of teachers who think this is a valid application! Also, I agree that Shuai Jiao is seldom taught. To put my neck on the line, I think it may stem from the attitude among many taiji schools that to "go to ground" is proof that your taiji is too poor to handle the fight. There seems to be an elitist attitude which tends to cover up the fact that if by chance the practitioner is taken/knocked down, he'll be toast. You only need to see some of the schools where the most "throwing" involved is the master showing his "chi power" by pushing away compliant students with Peng. While taiji isn't Aikido, there should be some kind of training in followup (lock/take-down) after the initial strike. A strike (or strikes) is seldom the end point of a fight.
Good to be back! Totally, the other factor that western people don't often take into account is the body size and physique of many Chinese people. Barring many of the taller northern Chinese, many if not most in those days were not much past 5'7 and they had shorter limbs and a low centre of gravity. With shorter legs and a lower centre of gravity, performing moves like SCD was a sinch but then come 6ft plus westerners and it's a stretch for many. In regard to what is safe and healthy I think it's fair speculation also, because I doubt very much they had a handle on what might be happening to knee cartlidge in some of those postures even though they had 3000 years of TCM by that time. I have seen pictures of old masters performing the sets and they have their postures in all the worst positions for causing knee trauma. Many of the rules are broken with knee's passing over toes and on and on. I think they were better able to get away with this because of their smaller body size placing less weight on those joints. If you are a larger 80-100 kg westerner and you tried those for a year or two you'd be looking at knee surgery! I agree there are postures that seem unreasonable, thats exactly what I am saying about Snake Creeps Down in the Yang set. It also makes my point that the applications of certain postures are slightly changed and hidden within the form either because they were deliberately contructed that way to disguise what was going on or they were being slightly altered by successive students down the line ... or both! But if you examine the postures and research their efficacy as a combat move there are moves within the forms which quickly become extremely effective if they are performed correctly; Snake Creeps Down isn't one of them. It's a nice stretch but a non starter as an effective combat posture. So the question remains, do you alter it or do you just know what the real move looks like and still perfom the flowery move in the form for the sake of continuity and tradition? Single Whip is actually one of the easier defensive strikes in the Taiji fighting set and comes pretty easily and naturally, to me that is. The type of move that it is goes hand in hand with many of the Lung Har Chuan drills we used to do in the park. Your just feinting to left and leading your opponent into emptyness, wrapping their leading hand ( in typical Lung Har Chuan fashion ) with your hook/crane hand and then driving through, up and under the opponents jaw, into the neck/corotid artery area with your up turned open handed knife edge palm strike. Lights out! Do you remember we used to practice these moves in the park last year? You could easily modify the technique after you have struck the attacker with your left hand by then sliding in closer, pulling the opponents right arm across your open chest then wrapping your left striking hand back and around his neck - so you have him in a reverse head lock - and then just perform a kind of slant flying hip shake fajin, bust the guys arm at the elbow and choke him out in the reverse headlock or just drop him after the break and use a classic Taiji stomp shot anywhere you like.. Thats what is very cool about training the Apps in Taiji because when you know them you can see how they effortlessly flow one into the next and the next. We were just starting to get into that in the Park before we all stopped meeting for a while, which was a shame. I think the low SCD is merely a health move and many masters and teachers have revealed the meaning and application of the low move and it's always the same ... impractical and you'd just never use it. Andy and I are going to hit the mats in a couple of weeks and work on some take downs and free sparring with gloves and head gear. I'll try SCD in the low combat app and get Andy to work it with me and see what happens. The moves in the form are there for a reason, I'll agree with that, but the moves in the form aren't necessarily the moves as they should be applied in combat applications. They are not verbatim examples but rather archetypes of the applications. It's important that the Taiji fighter makes a careful distinction between how the moves should be performed in application and how the moves are in the demonstration of the form, which in this case is like an encyclopedic reference book of the applications with Qigong. In my view Snake Creeps Down is a form who's application remains hidden to most performing it and while there is an application for the posture as it is performed in the traditional sets this application is not optimal; an understatement! For sure, when are you coming back to town ... even for a visit? I'll try it out with Andy when we get together again and report back the findings. I might have to get Andy a cricketers box! hehehehe.
Agreed. Thats one of those martial arts movie - wishful thinking shots! Fahhhgetabowdit! I honestly think they teach it because they either don't realise what it's really supposed to be doing, or they are using overkill to seem impressive. Honestly, lets say your in the low position of SCD and you use the old Yang, up turned crane beak, to the rear with the right hand? What attacker or situation would find an attackers face or neck or throat that low to the ground? Perhaps they are suggesting that it's an upturned shot to the groin of an opponent attacking from the rear? Thats as bad as the application with the forward striking hand. It's not going to happen ... ever! Whats tragic is that few people realise that Shuai Jiao is part of the taiji fighting curriculum! Takedowns and throws are inherent in more than half of the applications as finishing moves after leading, sticking, hooking, listening, neutralizing, striking, locking ... man it's inherent in Taiji and people don't know it because nobody teaches it. It's is soooo important to the finishing skills of the Taiji fighter. A Taiji fighter who has no Shuai Jiao is only half a Taiji fighter as there are leg sweeps and Chin Na going on in all the moves in the forms! A Taiji fighter is a close quarters stand up grappler which is why I am studying Shuai Jiao and the Chin Na with the applications because thats how they were supposed to be taught, as a complete core unit set of skills. A stand up grappler gets close in, devastates the opponent standing and finishes them with a takedown. The idea is that you shouldn't need to go to ground if you do your close in work properly, the take down is the coup de grace of Taiji. The takedown is the point where the Taiji fighter decides whether a stomp is required or whether the opponent is planning on staying down. If a Taiji fighter has only striking skills or yeilding skills and nothing beyond that then thats like going out half cocked. People need to understand that going to ground and controlling your opponent and putting them on the ground are two different things. Exactly, it's a foolish arrogance and a shame really because it's the students who are going to reap the rewards of that misinformation. There are good guys out there in the world who are teaching full Taiji curriculum and in the U.S they are very lucky because Taiji guys can go and cross train in Shuia Jiao where it is taught at a very high level and regain the missing skills that were once inherent in the Taiji fighting sets. I am trying to find someone in Sydney who knows and teaches Shuai Jiao or Mongolian wrestling for this very reason. There's a school in Brisbane that do but they are no help to me in Sydney. In the meantime I have quite a few books on Shuai Jiao that I aim to work on with Andy. Taiji has all that but it isn't taught as a complete curriculum. It's up to the individual to train those area's as best they can and if it means attending different schools to acquire those skills in a complete sense then thats exactly what they should do. I'm planning on training with Sun Da Fa because he has Chin Na and Xing Yi.
That's pretty funny - I'm just imagining you demonstrating... "and now ladies and gentlemen - my assistant, Andy is going to take a groin strike and throw while I demonstrate SCD... Andy... Andy, where have you gone...?" I just thought - another reason for the move may be to practice changing levels and getting in and out of the crouch position. Yang is performed very upright, so it's probably important to practice the free-flowing movement in and out of a crouch. Tradition is probably important too. It's one of the most photogenic moves in the Yang set for one, and, basically, if the student can get that move correct with all it's finer details, a lot of the other moves would be a sinch. Basically - I still think there's a place for it, but now you're at a certain level it's up to you whether to always do it in your own practice. Maybe you could give Erle a bell?
Now your talking! Thats exactly the conclusion that I am coming to over this move. I think it was initially mean't to be a Shuai Jiao throw but was later modified in the Cheng Fu days to be applied from the low position as a block to a kick and then a low groin strike. As I said in my opening spiel, the straight leg in the low posture should only be a very brief thing as it is used as an entering technique to shoot that leg between the attackers legs. You would then immediately crouch in close and tight to their body and lift/strike upwards to the groin with the left hand and then peform the throw. Then stomp that ass! I love the look of that move, it really is a signature no doubt. I'm not going to throw it out but I may substitute it from time to time in my form work to remind myself of how it ought to be; change it up once in a while for my visualization. I was thinking of sending him an e-mail actually and I might send Tim Cartmell one also and see what he thinks. Tim actually translates Chinese and speaks it and has spent quite a bit of time in many of those arts.
Really enjoying this thread. Lots of great information. Hi Syd, your on the money when you say that the majority of postures can be incredibly effective. I also agree that it is the postures at the start of the form that are the most effective of those. I missed one of the Sunday sessions my school had. My teacher was showing some chin-na applications. My mate was the 'uke' for most of them. Real shame I missed it, but I'm sure it will come up again. My instructor has a fair amount of Aikido experience, so this type of thing was not new. I also agree that many people do not realise that taiji is a 'complete' art, with throws and locks along with the usual punches, strikes and kicks. There is a problem that in the limited time that classes are run, it is hard to explore the full range of possibilities. Back in the days of schools with live in students, where you had many hours of practice time every day, you could have trained in all the aspects of the art. These days all that most of us can achieve is our weekly classes (for me thats up to 5hours, but otheres can only get 1 or 2), and the morning and evening solo practice. I envy you in that you guys meet (or at least used to) in the park to 'play'. There are just some things that you cannot do in the middle of Glasgow! cheers!
Sure, as we all know many of the opening postures are repeated in the 2nd and 3rd parts of the Yang form and only very few new movements are introduced. The later movements are a bit more elaborate within the context of the form but if you break the postures down and apply them out of their semi-static context and give them a living breathing context in sparring they are also effective. Moves like Slant Flying and Fair Lady Works At Shuttles are solid moves as are the snap kicks, side kicks and lotus kicks given the opportunity. Postures like Play the Lute which is an arm break plus low snap kick to the knee are very do-able! If you haven't tried that one with a partner, give it a go, gently ofcourse. Sounds like a good instructor, having Aikido would be a boon. What family of Taiji are you studying by the way and what forms are you learning? Agreed, though if I were teaching I would clearly set out a weekly curriculum and break the classes down into the various techniques. I would encourage the students to find partners or continue training with classmates or whoever between classes when they could also. Say you had three classes a week. I'd just have throwing and take downs on one class day, chin na and entering/controlling on another and general striking and form work on another day with two person drills for all of the above spread out over the week. I think it's a knowledge and management thing personally. Sure, but the guys in the old days weren't all live in students either. There were many who trained every chance they got and trained in open courtyards and anywhere they could. There are stories of some of the Yangs training underneath dining room tables doing entire forms for lack of space! I mean thats an entirely different kind of dedication. I think the issue these days is that there are just too many distractions and peoples attention spans are only so long in the modern age. Back in the 1800's you didn't have any TV or magazines, X-box, blockbuster movies or shopping malls to distract you from your training. The world around the 1800's martial artist was pretty stark. You had work, sky, earth, clouds, water, wood, food, marriage, children, duty, honour, kung fu. Life was pretty simple. In those days there was allot of unrest also and if you didn't have some kind of kung fu then you were essentially defenseless. I think the laws these days protect the individual ( barely ) allot more than in ancient times so the impetus was really there to make sure you were a mean mofo if trouble arose. When we used to meet in the park we only had about 2 - 3 hours together and the rest of that time I wasn't training or going to classes but training alone. I know Andy wasn't formally training at any schools and Nzric was the only one still doing that at that point. We were training in our free time though between meeting up and I think it makes a difference for people not to just train in class and then do nothing. I find that even when I am not physically training Taiji I am constantly thinking about it ... thinking about moves and postures and trying to analyse where I'm going and trying to go with it all. This helps me more than you'd ever know, living it and breathing it so to speak. Best, Syd.
Adjusting Techniques? It's interesting what happens in your training when you follow your own intuitive responses. I was thinking about what led me to begin adjusting my form and adding slight changes to the way I put it all together and it became an issue of my own personal energy requiring it of me. Rather than follow some rigid design I wanted to use my own common sense and intuition to guide my form work because if the correct intent and the Taiji principles are adhered to it is Taijiquan. I say all this in relation to the thread title and my analysis of Snake Creeps Down where someone might ask, why change it, or would you want to change it? Well after nearly a year of not having visited Erles site I found an interesting article about "Adjusting Postures" which pretty much explains where I find myself at intuitively. Check it out... http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/adjusting_the_postures.htm
Hi Syd, the solo form I practice is the CMC form, then there's the sword form and sabre. Next year we are going to start looking at some jo work to fulfill the staff part of the practice. I like to think that we are a fairly atypical CMC school, in that there is a strong leaning towards the two person exercises and the martial. A pretty grounded approach. Although, as with most schools out there, a lot of students only want the solo form, there is a strong cadre of students exploring the fuller range of possibilities. I've continued to try to examine my own postures and some of those have changed as a result. One such posture, coincedentally was SCD. I had been working on it and had altered my approach somewhat. My teacher asked if I had been taking lessons elsewhere (not the case) as it was different, without being 'wrong'. Our form should be something that is alive. Open to change. When it becomes stuck and stagnant, then it starts to die. IMHO. I agree that there are some very nice applications of the postures later in the form, but the building blocks for those applications are also in the first section (well, most of them anyway). For example in fair ladies when transitioning from the first to the second, the move starts off with something very similar to roll back. I was 'uke' for my teacher when he was showing 'fist under elbow'. Everything was going fine, so I put more energy into my attack. SLAM! I was flat on my back with little knowledge as to how I got there! There have been times when the 'uke' was asked to throw a punch (at slow speed) to my teachers face. Unfortunately, even if the punch was full power, the blow would not have landed as the guy was both aiming to miss and not stepping in close enough. That's why I always try to be the 'awkward bugger' when I am asked to help. I want to feel the efficacy of the move and also give my teacher more to work with. It tends to look better that way. Only scanned through the Erle article. I like some of what he has to say. As with all teachers out there, you take what is useful and discard the rest. A very good friend of mine has some of his vids. I seen some of them, and liked some of what I saw. I definitely took something from them. I know he gets a lot of stick from people about the stuff he teaches, but I think that some of his stuff is on the money. A lot of griping about particular schools/styles is more to do with 'politics' than actual practice. cheers
Hey mate. CMC eh? Ok, I would assume in the typical CMC schools you guys do allot of push hands? Taiji short staff is excellent stuff, I've been doing the Yang Shou Hou form for nearly four years now. Do you know exactly where your weapons forms stem from? From what the Yang family themselves have had to say they don't consider CMC to be a Yang family art but something completely different altogether, such were the changes that CMC made to what he learned from Yang Cheng Fu. I assume you are studying Chengs short forms? It's good to be that way, though in a class situation it can often be a fine line between that and coming off as disrespectful to the teacher. It's good if you have a teacher who welcomes that and revels in the opportunity to show you some stick. It all comes down to the kind of training your looking for. Erle has a very unique approach to teaching his art and he is a bit of an eccentric and well outside the silk pyjamma brigades views of what passes for a serious master. Erle is no bones down to earth and I think people get hung up on how he looks more than what he teaches. I don't agree with everything Erle says but I haven't found anybody who teaches a more complete and combat effective Taiji system ... yet! Having trained in his system I would vouch that nearly everything he teaches is on the money. The people that gripe about Erle have never trained in his system and usually have bought a couple of tapes and can't seem to see the gold in them. The people that gripe about Erle, Erle would have for breakfast if it came down to using their Taiji, simple as that really. There's allot of politics in Erles case because he tells it like he is and he doesn't kow tow to the fashion Nazi's on the scene. Best, Syd.
