SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Meow Garth, meow.

Before the mods come in and smack us both, I am going to point out that I am not going to sink to your level. But when you use the same tactics that the frauds do, I will be sure to point it out. I expect to see a lot of venom from you towards the Bujinkan and Soke now that it is clear that you can no longer claim that Steve is a valid student on good terms with Soke.

As Fifthchamber pointed out, it is clear to everyone now.

 

Just one point(of many) that stands out.

From me understanding at least and i could be wrong but for years I've thought any correspondece sent to Hatsumi Sensei was to be in Japanese, so why send letters in English?

 

Grimjack posted

The trouble is that none of us don't know what the situation is.

Was the plaque taken down because Mr Hayes is doing his own thing and not a member of the Bujinkan?

Or is it because Dr Hatsumi has become displeased with Mr Hayes?

Whatever the case Dr Hatsumi has NOT said anything official, Nor AFAIK written a letter to Mr Hayes expressing the situation but confusingly at the same time is still sending Bujinkan diplomas to Mr Hayes.

Personally I think it would be good for all to know what his intentions are and that way we can get rid of all these rumours and everyone just move on.

In a way i guess Mr Hayes is in a catch 22 situation. If he humbly goes back to Dr Hatsumi and apologises for any insult he has done to Hatsumi and rejoins the Bujinkan then he would be going back on his decision to teach in his own way, something Mr Hayes says Dr Hatsumi has always admonished him to do, but if he removes all links to any form of Bujinkan mention, i.e the section on his web site regarding his previous training with Dr Hatsumi, then it could be a slur in the face of a person he sees as his teacher.

A difficult one.

Saru 1968 posted

I think this is true. Back in 2004 prior to Mr Hayes visit to Japan Mr Hayes commented that he had just received a letter from Hatsumi Sensei inviting him and his family to Japan, and to congratuate his daughter on the future wedding. Mr Hayes told me that if I liked I could see it. I thought yes, then I could report back that I had seen a letter sent from Hatsumi Sensei to Mr Hayes. Then of course it dawned on me (I was suffering from Jet Lag) that the whole thing would be written in Japanese.

Gary Arthur

 

But knowing that why did Steve send a letter in English?

 

Well really its hard to see how the removal of the plaque does not indicate the above and with my extremely little understanding of Japanese culture thats a big negative against the person.

And the postings on the Honbu Admin BB is about as offical as its going to get.

The diploma issues have been addressed as its the admin that sends them out.

 

Yes we do know. The letter you got from Ohashi san made it clear. You tried to leave out the bad sections to make it sound better, but someone else posted them.

Here it is again.

There is no way you can honestly say after reading the above that Steve is still in good graces with Soke.

 

garth;

i really don't see how it can be argued that there is any confusion about this issue.

i could write my complete understanding of Japanese ettiquette on the back of a postage stamp, but even I can discern why Hatsumi took down the plaque.

Hatsumi has said in one of his books (essense? i think) that he has never had to expel a student from the Bujinkan. It doesn't seem to be his way of operating.

But the names on the board are clearly there as an endorsement of the named individuals as being 'on message' with regard to the teachings of his budo.

What other possible meaning could taking the plaque down have other than a removal of that endorsement?

Surely it is crystal clear that Hatsumi requires SKH to return to Japan and earn back his endorsement or to simply carry on his own path.

There is no requirement for anyone to do anything other than what they choose to do with their own life. The removal of the plaque is not a condemnation of SKH, simply an overt gesture which communicates the simple truth that SKH is no longer recognised as transmitting Hatsumi's budo the way Hatsumi wishes.

But that does not negate the quality of SKH's budo in anyway (IMHO), his budo is his own, TSD is his own and really, all this act does is draw a clear line which informs the world that TSD is not BBT.

Regarding whether SKH is still a member of the Bujinkan?

Does he still hold a valid Shidoshi card? Are his dues paid up to date?

If he does, he is, if he doesn't, he isn't.

But from what I can see, just being a member of the Bujinkan is not the same as having the endorsement to transmit Hatsumi's budo which one receives when their name is placed on the judan wall.

 

Saru 1968

Well now that Joji Ohashi knows maybe he might mention that to Dr Hatsumi. I must say i find it hard to believe that no one approached Dr Hatsumi and asked if they should still send the certificates out.

Gary Arthur

 

Garth, reread the email from Honbu Admin, its answers that quite clearly.


'It's OK even if he still receives certificates from Hombu. They are for
his students who are not responsible for this matter at all.'

 

Xen posted

Thats it. Thats exactly how I feel. I do not think that there is this big falling out that we are led to believe. Mr Hayes has gone one way and is no longer that involved in the Bujinkan. Sure some of Mr Hayes' students still require gradings from Dr Hatsumi in the classical ninjutsu and Dr Hatsumi is honorable enough to send them to Mr Hayes for his students.

And maybe thats it in a nutshell. Mr Hayes is no longer teaching in the same vein as Dr Hatsumi, and as someone who isn't that could be why the plaque has been removed. Maybe its no more than that.

Gary Arthur

 

Again though aren't the certs for students

As the e-mail says:

So it has no bearing on his relationship to Soke does it? The certificates are for others who have nothing to do with the incident. So really the certificates are irrelevant as they are for, I would imagine, Bujinkan members (all be it via Toshindo) and not Mr Hayes personally.

To me it just shows that the issue is again more to do with Mr Hayes on a personal level i.e. the direction he has taken with his Budo rather than Toshindo as an org.

So all this talk of Mr Hayes is still receiving certificates is somewhat misleading. He is not! It is students within the org that are getting the certificates.

 

I don't think that anyone else thinks that. Taking down the plaque is not the mark of someone being pleased with what someone else is doing. And considering how you not too long ago were attacking Soke for throwing his plaque in the sink, I think you understand that as well. But I don't expect you to change your tune.

 

Am I the only one that's got dizzy form all the changes in direction GARTHS been taking with this issue over the last few months??

 

just to throw another point in that keeps getting missed here...

you all seem to be fighting to decide whether or not Bujinkan certificates are arriving at Quest's request for Bujinkan grades they have issued to dual members of TSD/Bujinkan.

I'm assuming now it is safe to say such certificates are going from Hombu to Quest to Student.

Hang on a minute, strap me in, cos there is a glaring hole here.

Who is grading the students in BBT? SKH? His senior instructors?

But haven't we have just seen their endorsement removed when the plaque was taken down?

So what value can be place on the worth of the certificates that have been sent from Hombu to Quest to Student?

ooops, we're back to that circular can of worms again...there's some pretty messy logic here.

 

Very good point. If an invididual is er not in the organisation any more, through whatever turn of events, can they/should they be offering rank in BBT?

 

Spooky FBI posted

I find it funny that a couple of days ago some people (Not Spooky) were catergorically stating that Mr Hayes WAS NOT receiving certificates for his students and that he was a liar. And now those people have been proven wrong, that the whole thing has changed to quotes like

And the thread has once again turned back to the plaque and Mr Hayes relationship with Dr Hatsumi, a point that has been raised in not just in this thread but others, in an attenpt to distance themselves away from the fact that in the case of the Certificates they were WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and that Mr Hayes has been shown to be honest in this affair over the certificates.

So why was there such a big deal made over it in the first place by people trying to say that Mr Hayes was a liar and that he was not receiving certificates. As Grimjack posted

Why didn't they say "Maybe he is receiving certificates but they are for his students and irrelevant to the relationship with Dr Hatsumi"?

Spooky FBI posted

I've had to. Everytime like on this occasion where Mr Hayes has been shown to be truthful in the fact that he is receiving certificates, the rumour mongers have picked up another bone.

Gary Arthur

 

With regards to the "receiving certificates" thing!

I think the problem with it was partly due to this from the Quest website:

It seemed, to me anyway, an attempt at obfuscating the "board" incident. A way of trying to say well we’re still getting these. So in a way Mr Hayes wasn't really being up front was he, it looked like he was trying to cover it all up by using the fact that students of his were still getting certs. He was still trying to show his link to Soke and that everything was “Hunki Dori”, there’s that lock again He says “Obviously, he still considers us as part of the team”

Ultimately it doesn’t show him in a good light and IMO it doesn’t show him as being totally honest in this affair as you put it.

Anyway I think this has been covered to death now and not much more is going to come from it. We know the name board was taken down and we know what that means. We know that Quest/Toshindo can still get Bujinkan certs for people as they have nothing to do the taking down of his name board.

I'm up for locking it any objections folks?





hmm might make it a sticky though

 

yes, you can read my intentionally ambiguous post that way.

but if I were a Bujinkan member, I'd be more concerned about just what value to place on my own certificates.

like I say, there is some very messy logic here and a significant amount of doublethink is required to keep that logic internally consistant.

 

I think the issue is an internal Toshindo issue anyway?
If members of that org wish to get Bujinkan rank then it's down to them to see if it is legit, obviously there is going to be some problem if you are a personal student of Mr Hayes and you want Bujinkan rank but again it's an internal thing and should be left that way, it's their mess to sort out er so to speak.

There's enough on here now, about the Name board etc, from both "sides", for folks to weigh up and come to their own conclusions.

 

As a Bujinkan member, I can say that I think that one of the brilliant lessons I've learned from Sensei's budo is EXACTLY how much value to place on my own certificates.

Different promotions, recognitions, certifications, come from different people, at different times, for different reasons; Nagato sensei is fond of saying, "...case by case..."


(Edited Addendum)

This seems to me to apply to a great deal of this debate....