First of all I appologise for bringing up an old thread but recently during my training this has been bothering me. I used to train under ther UKTF who use sine wave without the hip twist but now I train with the TAGB who use hip twist without the prominent up down movement of sine wave. Under UKTF instruction we were told that sine wave would increase the power of our techniques, however since joining the TAGB I have found that hip twist has increased my power signifincantly. I had pretty much accepted the explanation that the extra mass caused by sine wave should make my technique more powerfull but in practice this wasn't the case. I then studied the way I used the hip twisting motion to try to find an explanation, only to find that when using hip twist one hip drops slightly whilst the other raises thus when moving causes a less exagerated sine wave. I then trained with a boxer friend of mine and found that he also used his hips in this way to generate power only increasing the tourque by pivoting on his feet rather than using the fixed stance style used in Taekwondo. I also found that the same hip twisting movement when applied to my Judo practice added extra power to my throwing techniques.
We were never taught the sine wave, but use the hip twist as you mentioned. In fact I don't know when the sine wave came into being and I haven't gotten to that discussion in Stuart's book yet (a book I'm enjoying btw.) But I know that the twisting of the hips (look where you are throwing the person) is used in Judo/Sambo and in boxing. I've never seen the Sine wave idea used in anything else and certainly not in sparring.
The answer's, "Your hips." Now what's the question? I think you're spot on Devildog, hip twist also allies itself naturally with a more natural motion drop of bodyweight, which is not sinewave as performed by some. See StuartA's piece on this on his website and in his book. I don't think hip twist is necessarily performed in a fixed stance however; stance, breathing and technique should all finish at once in most instances, so the hip twist is starting before the stance is completed, rather than fixing the stance then throwing the hip twist. Just my two pen'orth. Mitch
I just had a thought. If sinewave increases power, how often do you see sinewave-comaptible techniques used to break during testing? For example, I'm only now learning sinewave so in my last 3 dan tests, when I had to break 2 boards with a hand technique, I used a reverse punch (left foot forward in a walking stance, right hand punching) which relies on hip power. I did not step into the break. If I had been learning sinewave, would I have used a regular straight punch, stepping into the technique so I could get down-up-down? Have you ever seen anyone in a sinewave school step into their breaking technique? Knifehand? Reverse knifehand? Anything? I'm excluding kicks because sinewave during kicking is subtle if even present. I just observed ITF Black Belt testing this weekend. With a couple exceptions, the only hand breaks were tiles using a downward punch or knifehand. Do you need sinewave to punch straight down? Can you? So now I challenge you, if you practice sinewave. Are there any hand techniques that you'd be willing to stand back and step into a power break in order to perform a sinewave? Are you afraid of the power you'd generate or are you afraid you'll hurt your hand? Any videos??
I think you can use sine wave without having to step into the technique. (Mitch: I was thinking of getting Stuart A's book - would you recommend it from a TAGB practitioners' perspective?)
I'd recommend it to any ITF (or any derivative) stylist. The reason is because it promotes thought. I don't prescribe to everything Stuart presents in the book, but it is interesting to read his take on things. I also like some of his explanations for things...for example the traditional low block actually being a shoulder throw. In Sambo we actually practice doing the hip throw from a grip very much like the traditional low block. So I can certainly see it. Another is the W block actually being a fireman's carry. But I also think that if these things are true then the forms would have to be radically altered and would barely resemble their current form after revision. I still present hyungs as 'active meditation and exercise' to the student, but I also have added Stuart's perspective to things to let the student mull over. Actually watch Stuart's testing video. There is a guy who uses the 'sine wave' (very mild application of it) in a hand break. Incidently we have to break four to five pine boards with our hands for testing...so I know that plenty of power can be generated from the hips to break without sine wave. Punch and palm-heel is used quite frequently to break. But with so many boards many people who are lighter use the elbow strike...
Oh yes. Keep your eye on the TAGB thread for more hopefully coming soon Did you get my email StuartA? Mitch
Two separtae argument here, I'll just do one for now, the second deserves another thread. I don't want to speak for StuartA, but I think he would agree based on his article, and certainly from my experience, that the natural body drop that was originally termed sine wave is a great technique. It promotes rooting your stance to gain power whilst still projecting in the direction of the technique. Few people in TKD argue against this interpretation. But something changed in the ITF in the mid-late 80's (plase correct me if my dating is out). For reasons that may be realistic (sine wave makes more power) or may be political/nationalistic (we have to make TKD different form all those other [Japanese based] arts) or may have any other number of foundations, sine wave became emphasised to the exclusion of hip twist. Personally, I have never seen a convincing explanation of Sine Wave in its later meaning, nor a convincing demonstration of its superiority when applied without hip twist. I may be misunderstanding the issue and am happy to debate or be corrected, but in my experience hip snap with natural motion body drop works (although it lacks a catchy title, but hey, let's everbody do the Mitch Wave! ) and sine wave on its own does not and I cannot see how it could. Mitch
Cool - thank you Aaron. And thanks again You mean the short, stocky guy with the blond hair right? Hes not one of mine Stuart
Yup, FWIW I agree 100% the old sine-wave (meaning original) was simply a dropping into stances to gain power/root techniques etc etc. Mid/late 90's - reason - IMO political.. in others, erm, to add power! Neither have I! LOL - the Mitch Wave! Stuart
Well he is on YOUR video so in the internet sense you own him now!!! Do you belong to a greater organization and hold tests together? Also I was curious...in your book one of the guys in the introduction mentions that TKD stylists sought to dishonor other martial art styles and ended up dishonoring TKD instead. What is he referring to? When did TKD try to dishonor other martial arts? I'm not asking because I'm disagreeing btw, but more out of curiosity.
You can also use Hip Twist/Snap without stepping into a technique. I also have Stuarts book, and having spoken to him over the last few years on various other forums, would say that its probably better for TAGB members than for ITFers (but he may not agree! ). Rob
Yeah, I suppose a good (basic) example of this would be when doing punches in sitting stance? Although the feet are fixed, there is still hip twist and a vertical movement. In that case I think I will look into ordering it.
i use sine wave and hip twist , both are great, tho a sine wave slows down the action for a fraction of a second!
I suppose it makes sense that it would since the range of motion is greater - travelling more in an arc rather than a straight line. Can anyone se any advantages of carrying out moves without ANY vertical motion i.e. as if carrying out the moves with a fixed ceiling just above your head - so you can't raise to drop down? The reason I ask is that I used to do a style of Kung Fu - and this is the way the forms were carried out from what I can remember.
Dam! - but yes, he does do the breaking, with sine wave whilst moving - as you pointed out! One of my examiners runs his own schools and we do the dan grade tests togethor, thats all! He is refering to the 'bigging up' of TKD by the 'putting down' of other arts by TKD instructors. He feels these action are dishonourable - for whatever reason (even if try to proliferate TKD) Stuart
Didn't think you would! (Although I'm sure you'd be happy for as many TAGB members to buy your book as possible ). A quick example - 'low block' used as a body drop takedown (tai otoshi in Japanese, sorry my Korean lacks in this area). The movement is much more similar when using hip twist and natural knee-spring / body drop, than the ITF Sine-wave IMHO. Don’t get me wrong, I recommend your book to all TKDist (particularly those who perform the Chang hon patterns obviously) but feel that the alternative applications you and others (Master Willie Lim, Iain Abernethy,etc) describe 'fit' better with the pre-sine wave TAGB style). I’d be interested to hear your thoughts! Rob
