Right on, Steve!! *Dahn-dahn daan, dahn-dahn da-dahn, dahn-dahn daan, dahn da-dahn!* ...That's the opening keys to "Smoke on the Water", for all of you who missed it. It was really for Steve anyway.
's funny, Bobbe. Tiel just looked at her "Where the Wild Things Are" t-shirt and said "Bobbe really does look like Max."
History Salam silat everyone, Fireshadow, it appears that you are confusing the history of Serak in the USA as the general history of Serak. I have said many times before that Serak is in Indonesia known as an aliran, meaning that there is no direct lineage holder in Serak in its original setting. It seems that after the de Thouars brothers began to teach their fighting arts in the USA, claims and counterclaims of lineage in Serak began so somewhere along the line someone was being less than truthfull or at least exagerating or sexing-up their claims. However, in Indonesia, like in Cimande, Cikalong, Kari, Madi, Syahbandar and other aliran styles, there is no one Guru Besar (lineage holder) in Serak. In aliran styles silat is a community affair and lineage has never been important here, thus trying to verify lineage claims is very difficult. The history of silat is still very under-researched. Take Cimande, for instance. Everyone in Sunda-land will tell you that Cimande is the oldest style of silat in West Jawa, and experts have worked out that Cimande was created by Mbah Khoir some time in the 18th or 19th century. This of course is contrary to the oldest mention of Sundanese silat in Sunda literature which mentions the fighters of the Pajajaran kingdom playing pencak using many different kinds of weapons in the Perang Bubat war with Gajahmada, which happened several centuries before this Mbah Khoir is supposed to have lived. How can the oldest pencak in Sunda be so young, several hundred years younger than the first written record of it? The fact of the matter is that up till now, even though several people have gained PhDs from researching Sundanese silat, the history is still very sketchy. It is an absurdity that in the USA, some people are claiming lineage and authenticity in aliran styles. Just as absurd as how some people give out and address themselves using titles like Guru, Guru Besar, Guru Muda, Pendekar and so on. Why don't some of you come to Indonesia and seek out the truth yourselves? Don't you ever think that maybe, just maybe, what you call a rose is actually a magnolia? Doesn't the fact that the many of the Pendekars who have spread these arts in the USA have proven track records of merely being at the level of a jago or pendekar and are NOT Guru material (patricide, quarells amongst brothers, quarrels with senior students, claims of woo-woo spirituality, selling 'spirit tombak', uncommon certificates, and so on) worry some of you? It certainly worries me! Kumaha atuh? After saying that I should also state that I really appreciate and respect the attitude of the Stevan Plink branch who from their posts in this forum seem to truly understand and practise hormat. I imagine that Mr Plink is real Guru material. Warm salaams to all, Kiai Carita.
I still wonder what IT is, in terms of where it came from. One sees very recognizable elements of IT where it is referred to by name, all over the U.S. and Europe. Most of the talk on this forum focuses on the John deVries line. Guru Terlinden sure had boatloads of IT, and he had it so far back as to call into question whether he learned it from Paul in New Guinea or Los Angeles. The Reeders/Wetzel/Colangelo/Malterer (I'm inappropriately lumping them together here for brevity) lines claim substantive knowledge of IT, and many claim that theirs came directly from Mas Djoet, maybe with Ventje deVries as a training partner of Willem Reeders. And of course now our friend and neighbor Dr. Andre, one of the last Javanese born Dutch-Indos, and who used to live with Guru Terlinden, is a lineage carrier for the Ventje/Guru Maurice line from Holland, and is teaching yet another sub-system, Anak Serak. There are boatloads of IT all over this country, and it is certainly NOT the monkey-weaponless-dirt-throwing-less-than-significant-subsystem of Cimande that I've seen described elsewhere. Before anyone flames me for this, I'm NOT saying that that particular art doesn't exist, or that they don't really call it Sera, or that they can't name Americans as Pendekkars of it - I personally don't care. That art is just nothing like what is all over the U.S. and Europe. In fact, I'd be inclined to believe that IT is a Dutch Indonesian art, given the usage of the platforms as I learned them, (maybe adapted from European long blade work?) and how I know the Terlinden lines use them. I stop short of believing this, however, because the Suwandas put IT (some djurus, anyway) into Mande Muda, and I have never seen where Pak Herman's father trained with a deVries, Reeders, or Terlinden. I'm personally not interested in contributing to ANY of the current feuds on this lineage topic although I can certainly see why Guru Plinck's students are. They've been getting slighted through the deThouars brothers' mistreatment of their teacher for a looong time now, and it persists. By the way, a lot of us are cross-pollinating as we speak (Bukti folks too), so if folks want to stay in a closed door society they can, but it's more fun out in the open air. Anyhow, so far as lineage goes, I'd still love to know where IT (in the commonality of its present form) came from - just the last 100 years would be nice.
Doesn't the fact that the many of the Pendekars who have spread these arts in the USA have proven track records of merely being at the level of a jago or pendekar and are NOT Guru material (patricide, quarells amongst brothers, quarrels with senior students, claims of woo-woo spirituality, selling 'spirit tombak', uncommon certificates, and so on) worry some of you? It certainly worries me! Kumaha atuh? Salam Kiai, I used to think the same things :bang: I was shocked when a person claimed his a Guru and demamded to be call Guru. Some have their business card with those tittle too. Now day, I can hardly contain my laughter. I don't really care.... After saying that I should also state that I really appreciate and respect the attitude of the Stevan Plink branch who from their posts in this forum seem to truly understand and practise hormat. I imagine that Mr Plink is real Guru material. Warm salaams to all, Kiai Carita.[/QUOTE] I have met Stevan, see him perform and conduct a class. See him behave in public. Stevan is an execellent silat player. His students have the right to call him Guru. As far as to what styles he like to call his, since he no longer associate with PDT, he has the right to call his style what ever he desire. As far as Serak origin, I have to agree with Kiai, there is no direct link to Indonesia. Have anyone ever see the padi trees? The more padi in his trees, the more trees bend to the ground. The less padi on the trees, they went straight up. In silat that I knows, the more you know, the more humble you are. The beginers are always fight to go the top and to be reckon. Be a Padi! Tristan Pendekar tidak berarti
Bart, if you're going to make unprovoked attacks you need to back them up. "I could tell you but it just isn't worth my time, besides I promised not to prove anything I say with facts" doesn't cut it. Those are not the words of an honest man. Why, yes. My wife and I both passed the Guru Muda examination with flying colors, probably the same year that you did. Guru Stewart did and then some. In fact, he was on our testing board more than ten years ago. Guru Latthitham has always been a special case, but yep, him too. Guru Plinck had all sorts of impressive sounding titles as an instructor which came straight from his teacher. If you want to extend "your camp" to include everyone with teaching credentials who was on friendly terms with Stevan and didn't shun him like a Biblical leper the list is even bigger. Within reason, certainly. Depends on the conditions of the oath and how well the other party holds up his end. As the poet James Leigh Hunt wrote: You really don't want a full answer to that last question. You're throwing out a lot of poorly disguised accusations here. If you've got something to say, say it. Tell us who made what oaths, who violated them and why. You see, our teacher doesn't require oaths or vows from us. If you're his student everyone understands that you are straight with him and he will be straight with you. There is responsibility that goes both ways. When we screw up, and I've done it, he gives us grief. And it doesn't happen very often. For his part, he stands behind his friends and students when they need it, even if it costs him.
You see, our teacher doesn't require oaths or vows from us. If you're his student everyone understands that you are straight with him and he will be straight with you. There is responsibility that goes both ways. When we screw up, and I've done it, he gives us grief. And it doesn't happen very often. For his part, he stands behind his friends and students when they need it, even if it costs him. I agree with you Todd, the responsibilty goes both ways. I took an oath many moons ago and still to trying to keep the oath. I was told, if I can't follow the oath in entirity, than I should not claimed the system I learned and teach. Part of the oath is to use the teaching to spread Islam. This the part that I did not follow, all my students are Christian. Therefore, they understood where our silat system or aliran origins but they will not advertise as such. When you teach someone how to break another's rules and you authorize that someone to break another's rules, the sooner or later that someone WILL break everyone's rules, including your own. And I could be wrong too, Tristan
Hormat, Traditionally in Indonesia and the country that occupied this archipelago before it, linage has never been an important factor in pencak, silat, maempo, or silek schools. In fact traditionally there were never any silat schools, the first school in the ‘modern’ sense of the word would be the Setia Hati original school in East Java: Surabaya, then Madiun. I fully agree with you on this matter. Though my teacher greatly appreciates his older students to know the name of the first known teacher and my teachers teacher, it is surely not something we bother our younger students with. In the case people ask me were our style has come from I'm just required to give them right set of answers, not more not less. This should never be used to impress others though I fully realize this happens to often (in the Netherlands, Europe, the US and yes also in Indonesia) I the old days, at least in Indonesia, most Pendekar or guru didn't know any formal organisation and acknowledged new students when considered them fit to be one. These students may not have become their 'formal' heirs but surely will have used and named the various knowledge when they became teachers. On different posts some people have made a big deal of this and present lineage holders obviously take offence. In historic perspective I think this makes no sense. In my system we use some techniques that refer to a certain or different (well)known styles, by this we don't claim we inhereted the whole aliran. It just happen to be so that this technique has been part of our curriculum for decades or centuries, nothing more and nothing less. You might say we acknowledge the system for still naming their technique instead of using it and calling it our own. Just to give you a example about names and the use of it. When my teacher visited a well known Pendekar of a major sundanese aliran and showed him some of our system he acknowledge our asli. This was of course greatly accepted by my teacher, then however he offered one of his badges and offered to use it in the future instead of our own. Ours sounded to much chinese... Since my teacher would leave the next day (to sadly never return) the technical curriculum of the sundase style was obviously not important For this reason it is a waste of time for US pendekars to wrangle about the linage of Serak, and sad that someone has trademarked the name there. In Indonesia there is traditionally no sense of copyrights or intellectual property. If you invent a fighting method and your village follows you that is a reason to be proud, not to be upset. If some more skillful players then add on to what you found that is also seen as a blessing. The Islamic teaching that ilmu (knowledge) must be given back to Allah through amal (good deeds) means that traditionally silat teachers never sold their knowledge for pay, rather they would look after their students as parents. I have been lucky enough to be able to learn silat for more than free, when I visit my teacher I get free board and lodging as well. I agree fully once more...... Sampai bertemu lagi Pekir English is not my native language so excuse the possible mishaps
Hormat, This my first day as a member to this list so I might be a little over anxious in taking part since this is my second post today.... I've been reading up and down the various sublists and are not completely suprised to see a lot of (to say the least) animosity about origins and claims of heritage. I'm from the Netherlands and always thought we used te be unique in our quarrels and dismissal of each other on our origins and skills up to a level were it starts to hurt the silat community as a whole. The fact of the matter is that in this internet age it becomes obvious that in those early days it was not due to the nature of specificly the dutch-indo community, it is a worldwide thing. I read of Indonesians who dismiss Americans, Americans dismissing Americans, Indonesians in England having verbal quarrels with certain Americans. WTF is going on..... Again most of it is about the origins, the true heritage/lineage etcetera. To date silat is still one of the smaller MA in the world and if we keep going about it this way it will always be. As I've done before I'll post my the perspective of what is true or not. I only lived in Indonesia the first year after being born in Bandung. Since I've lived in the Netherlands and have been raised in a fairly traditional dutch-indo way. A lot of things (surely not all) that I was brought up with differed a lot from the way the Dutch do things. The way we communicate with people for example, almost never direct and confronting. During my visits to relatives in Indonesia this specific aspect was largely enhanced. To them I was probably pretty direct. The way of story telling is a thing alike. I can tell stories in a pretty visual sense, they do it a lot better and extreme than I can. You can be bothered by this but to me it was beautiful to observe, esspecially in the cultural context. And now I'm getting to the point I'd like to make. If you take a look at the way much (not all!) of Indonesian history has been handed over it is primarily by verbal means and sometimes accompanied with music or as music. In relation to the development of PS this plays an even bigger role due to the fact that most (if not all) systems/aliran2/styles were prior to WWII unorganized and local or regional orientated. In most cases their history has not been written down, let alone in a formal sense. I can illustrate this with examples of my own relatives and esspecially cousins in Cililitan, Jakarta (all Indonesians) Our great grandfather was a renowned pendekar or guru (whatever the readers flavor or preference) in his kampung. With our present view some of you might designate my great grandfather as a djago but what the hack. The stories about this man are great to listen to and I constantly have to remind myself to take of my european glasses. The daughter of this man (my grandmothers sister) could be very visual when she told me about him but I can assure you that my cousins, while in the same room, could overpower her stories even more. The sons of my cousins who listen to these stories too will probably do this up to a certain extend too. I'm convinced that in countries like Indonesia were common people rely heavily on verbal history, stories about individual renowned men in time (sometimes a century or longer) will loose their accuracy somewhat. Are we in the western world different? maybe in some ways... But don't we all know the phenomena that if you put circle of twenty people together and you tell one of them a story to tell to his neighbour, the story probably comes out a completely different way by the time you ask person #20 what the story was, maybe even losing it's context. Is this a problem? I don't think so, especially since we know there are few means to change it. It is simply impossible to comprehend the full history, origins, influencials and practitioners over a period sometimes longer than hundreds of years. This goes for individuals let alone if you try to look at the silat community as a whole. Sure this makes it hard to decide if someone is telling the truth about his origins but so what? If you don't trust him go somewhere else. In almost all of the postings members rely havily on secondhand information which by so-called historical scientific standards aren't provenor submitable. Nevertheless most of us act as if they do use historical scientific arguments. There is a distinct difference between believing and knowing. One isn't more wrong than the other. Then, can it be better? We will all start to look stupid if we keep dismissing each other like this... Pekir
Hi Pekir, Welcome to the forum Everytime I try to post a genuine Silat question it always seems to degenerate into politics It's been a little more harmonious lately though! I just plod along & learn from someone kind enough to teach me, so I'm not involved in these historical feuds. But between the politics and disagreements there are words of wisdom too. Manys the time I've thought, "Ah I see" or learnt to look at things from a different perspective. Some of the guys on here have a lot of experience, so keep an open mind & ignore the politics
