Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Lee Waters, Jul 13, 2006.
True or False?
I think everyone has already agreed several times that Shou Shu is BS.
Bringing up Shou Shu is going to be very bad.
Everyone is pretty much in agreement though with the above post.
The same could be said about any style. There's strength's and weakness in every style. Have you studied shou shu? If not perhaps you shouldn't judge what you don't now. If you have it's only your opinion, which you are entitled to but doesn't necessarily make it true.
i agree here. it's going to get very ugly in here.
i will say this about Shou Shu, the Shou Shu training ways can work, if you are interested in what they have to offer.
No, the same could not be said about any style. I said most of the posters here will say Shou Shu is fake and not an effective martial art. Most of the posters here wouldn't say this of Praying Mantis, Taiji, Xingyi, CLF, Muay Thai and BJJ, to name just a few. If I were to say, for example, that most everyone on this board agrees that Muay Thai is a crap art with a fake back story, most everyone would disagree. Therefore, the same could not be said about any style.
There are plenty of threads on MAP that talk about Shou Shu. Tons of them actually. There's also a Search feature at the top to help you find them.
Well technically with the exception of Muay Thai and BJJ, I hate to say it, but most, if not all Chinese Fists haven't necessarily proven that they're effective. Demonstrating against a compliant partner/student cannot judge if something is effective or ineffective.
So if Shou Shu is within the "fake" or ineffective category, what makes it so different from Mantis or Tai Chi? Neither of the others have proven themselves to be useful or effective outside of their own inner circles and through theories.
It's the pot callin' the kettle black, really.
If that's your experience with CMA maybe you should find a new school. I have never been to a CMA school that didn't have full contact sparring and most go outside of there inner circles and fight in tournements all the time.
Staying in a school to train is within my past already, but that's neither here nor there. And I'm not sure what you're trying to feed me here, but most people's experiences with CMAs has not been within what you've described. No, most of them DO NOT have full contact sparring. At least nothing that goes beyond Wing Chun Chi Sau, that is.
It's very rare that you'll find many CMA schools who do have consistant pressure testing within all fighting ranges under uncompliant circumstances. And even more rare where you'll see them fight out of their own inner circles. Believe me, this forum alone will let you know that. Just wait until you meet the individuals who make the claims of their Fists being only for "self defense" and not tournaments or competitions of any sort. Which has to be the lamest excuse in the world, but I'll leave alone for now. We've beaten that dead horse about a bizillion times already.
But please, do show me some proof of this school or schools, if you will. I'm always open to new revelations.
Thanks for the reminder as to why I have been avoiding the Kung Fu forum. Hasn't this merry-go-round been dismantled, beaten, flogged, tortured, mutilated and killed enough? These same damn threads rise from the dead more often than a Marvel superhero... :bang:
I'm not trying to feed you anything. You clearly don't know much about CMA. You obviously picked a bad school to learn from and formed a bad opinion of them, your loss.
How long have you done CMA? How many different schools have you been to? There are in fact alot of frauds out there teaching forms and very basic self defense and nothing more becuase that's all they know. That says nothing about real CMA. There are plenty of real teachers out there and they all include sparring in thier schools and most take there students to competitions.
I haven't been here that long so I don't know if that's true but I'm not too concerned with what a hand full of posters on an internet forum say. It's painfully obvious that many posters on these types of boards are only pretending to know about certain arts or are mere begginers fronting about being advanced and knowledgable.
What kind of proof do you want? Read the websites of numerous schools and you'll see that sparring is a mandatory part of the training if you want to reach higher levels. My first sifu retired years ago so he has no site, my second sifu's site can be found here http://school.ymaa.com/training/training.php Look through the site at the different ranking requirments and you'll see numerous sparring, empty hand against knife, and weapons sparring requirements and none of them are compliant. I have also trained with Jason Yee who's known for san shou but he originaly studied Wah Lum and Hung Gar. He was the first American to medal at the san shou world championships and later he opened the first san shou specific school in the USA based on his traditional knowledge.
I've been practicing CMA for 11 years now and counting. I come from a Southern Shaolin background, with emphasis on my S. Dragon grappling and leg work and have additionally studied Shuai Chiao, BaJi and pieces of Northern Shaolin and BaGua. My main concern these days is in groundfighting. I think I've trained in enough stand up striking and Chin Na to last a lifetime.
Really, you picked the WRONG person to question the credentials on, dude. Especially in regards to fighting. But then again, you do seem new here, so I guess...
Please, do quit with the "a lot" rhetoric and just tell me who these teachers are, where their schools are located and what competitions they've been in. Furthermore, if not competitions, how about videos of real sparring situations. And for the love of God, sparring WITHOUT tons of TKD gear as well.
If you weren't concerned, then why the hell are you here?
Yada, yada, yada...read, read, read, right? How many times have we been through this before?
The proof is in what you can show, not in what you can say. I've been to dozens of CMA schools and only about 1 of them even possess the tools to make good fighters.
I've been reading for years, man. Much more than you know. And there is still very little proof of CMAs providing great fighters on a regular basis. CMAs as a whole have had nothing but a downward spiral for the last 60 or so years. And unfortunately, not much has changed.
Again...proof, not text. Any moron can write an essay.
Sorry, but remember this might be old hand to some of you, but to new comers of the martials arts,we need to know the pit-falls. I found out by chance, in a book called The Journey, by Joe hyams that Bryan Hawkins had taken Shou Shu, before American Kenpo, and said it was a combination of Kenpo and white crane Kung Fu, and that Steve Labounty, one of Ed Parkers first black belts, had been Al, Ralph, and Al Moore Jr's. instructor. This was confirmed By E-mail from Mr Labounty, Quote "after I re-read the web-site I noticed they mentioned the Tracy Brothers, but not Richard Lee (Couvelier) nor me. Al & Ralph primarily, trained with me for a short period. They started with Richard Lee, who was a Tracy Student, Vernon Moore "little Al, Moore's son, and Jerry Melvin a student of theirs, joined in to learn the Parker system more intensely. 'big" Al and Ralph decided to go their own way and get into the Shou Shu material." 'this was in the late 60's." " I had no knowledge of Al Moore's training prior to his taking Kenpo." After reading on American kenpo techniques, I found Shou Shu techniques include , five swords, sleeper, etc. I found that interview of Mr. Moore, and was wondering if anybody with MA knowledge had broken down the article. Sorry did not mean to upset anybody.
Shen, if you are so disenchanted with CMA, go find a good MMA school and stop pinching our damn nipples. End of story.
Why does it hurt?
But tell me this. Why do you have to go to an MMA school in order to learn how to train and fight effectively? Stemming from your own words, it seems like you've admitted that what I've said is both true and shot yourself in the foot all at the same time.
Which is really sad, when you think about it. Especially considering that I didn't mention Mixed Martial Arts ONCE in any of my posts.
It probably has something to do with your mentality. Every time you post in the CMA forum it's always about what a sorry state of affairs CMA is in; how CMAers can't hold their own, how we don't prove ourselves; if we disagree with you, you get all "Martial Arts Nazi" on us, with yourself and your school as the bright shining exceptions in a bleak and dismal world. You sound like a twelve year old MMA nutrider, and it's getting old.
It never seems to occur to you that people who don't agree with you and are quite happy with the world of Kung Fu today. You completely lack the ability to grasp that.
Please allow me to rephrase my statement:
Yes. My nipples are quite sore at this point.
Well maybe I'm just looking for facts. Or maybe I'm just looking to weed out the problems.
It's unfortunate that I can't depend on fellow CMAists to help me out in these areas. Complacency was never my cup of tea and I honestly don't believe that the originators for some of these Fists were "complacent" with things around themeither.
So when I train with CMAists and keep running into the very same patterns over and over again with almost each and every one of them, you have to forgive 50% of my frustration and anger due to this. Then the other 50 derives from hearing how so many are "satisfied" with being mediocre in general. Especially when in comparison to how the rest of the Martial world evolves so rapidly.
You know what, maybe I did make the wrong decision. If you guys don't want to help, then I guess I'll just have to do it myself.
Separate names with a comma.