If there is a blessing to be had out of a troll post, its maybe that the thought processes get a bit of a jump-start. Its been about 27 years since I tied-into Hapkido and think that I have seen some shifts this way and that way. I wouldn't say that Hapkido is "dying" but there seem to be some changes that have occurred and I wonder if there is any interest in examining this? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Well.....I wasn't thinking so much of a debate as just rathermuch comparing notes and observations. Here are a few things I have noticed over time. a.) I started in the Hapkido arts in the 1980-s. At that time, whatever the teacher stated was pretty much taken as gospel. One thing that I have noticed is that the Internet has definitely caused people to share information and question the position that any particular teacher espouses. b.) There seems to be a real mixed-message regarding innovation in Hapkido. Historically one can trace "borrowing" material and techniques back to CHOI Yong Sul. Each generation of Koreans has used access to other arts to expand their curriculum. There was also a very clear understanding that only teachers of Korean descent were allowed to do such "enhancing". I believe I am seeing far more acceptance of non-Korean modifications and additions. c.) There used to be a very clear position that Hapkido was all about practical SD. Later members of the Hapkido community softened things bit to make the material more marketable. Now it seems like the pendulum is beginning to swing back the other way. d.) Used to be that someone could take just about anything from any art and mash it together and call the outcome "hapkido". Seems that the Hapkido community is getting better about identifying these folks and "outting" them. e.) Seems that the media is being used to better effect in sharing information, up to and including "mail-order" or "on-line" instruction. Anyhow....these are some of the things I noted and wondered if other people had picked-up on the same things, or had noted other shifts as well. Best Wishes, Bruce
One trend I've noticed is other styles incorporating Hapkido in their curriculem under the guise of self defense training. I think it's great, you know if it saves a life then by all means teach it. But it would be nice if those other styles would be willing to say we took this from Hapkido. For example we often utilize interception drills from Wing Chun. I always admit, we took this from Wing Chun.
Being new to being an 'official' student of Hapkido, I cannot really say what things were like before. I have only known of its existence for about a decade, and this year finally got the chance to begin studying it (from Instructor_Jon and his online program actually) but over the years, my Tae Kwon Do school had picked up a few hapkido based self defense skills, and we usually tried to cite where our self defense came from.
Hello all, Firstly, everyone smile, while this post might make you think, I am trying to be straight forward and none of this should offend anyone if they really think about it... Having been involved with Hapkido for more than 30 years now, I think that the big shift has come with people really reaching out on the internet and finding out information from Hapkido's sources, and its roots. Hapkido is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, first and foremost. Trace it back, look up its roots, try to re-codify it, give it a fancy name, it all comes back to Choi Dojunim, who was happy to call his art Hapkido. He had training and grading requirements up through 7th dan, and few outside of Daegu ever reached this level. Everything traces back to him and his time in Japan where he was trained from a young age. Choi Dojunim has no connection to any "Korean Ancient martial arts" - he never trained in Korea with anyone, and his art was unique on the peninsula. I think people are starting to become aware of the large amount of martial historians that refer to old Korean and Chinese texts as a pretext to fill in their lack of knowledge and understanding about Hapkido, and there is nothing wrong with referring to any resource as long as people are honest about where the material came from. But Hapkido is none of that. It is the art of Choi Dojunim that was founded in 1948 - and there is lots of evidence that points to this. I think people want to train in something that has been proven combat effective, and not something that has been cobbled together to make quick money. People looking for the material of Choi Dojunim still have several options for training, and if someone wants to train in Hapkido, they should seek out this knowledge. I think one of Hapkido's greatest strengths is its effectiveness in real life, it has not needed to "evolve" far from its roots. Choi Dojunim's technique is both effective and restorative in 2012, and I feel it will be so for decades to come.
I tend to agree with Kevin. The ability to research things on the INTERNET has allowed folks to strip away some of the fluff and begin to see circumstances as they really are, or might have been. For instance, the fact that CHOI Yong Sul could be a pretty unpleasant person does not take away from the gift that he gave to the World. I think the same might be said about JI, or Suh, or Seo or Lee or any of the others. Its just that now we can look at these people and know them for who they are---warts and all, so to speak. Maybe the same thing can be said of the arts we practice as well. Seems that I remember when KMA were represented as the embodiment of lethal force. I think that picture has been modified to some extent and people can make a more informed decision about what they will pursue and why. Best Wishes, Bruce
Unfortunately its dying, but it's not alone. Actually Bruce, I believe Hapkido is dying, but the same can be said about most other arts. We are trying to learn or teach a traditional art in a non traditional world. If we are having problems sorting out lineage and techniques now, imagine twenty years from now when most if not all of the people who brought Hapkido, "in whatever form," to America are no longer alive? For good or bad there use to be martial arts schools all over the place, but now they are just a handful. Interest in all arts have decreased but our population continues to expand. It can be expensive to run a school and expensive to attend one. The economy has taken its toll on both students and owners. Because of technology, globalization, and other things, many Koreans, Americans, etc. don't want to dedicate their whole life and much of their time to martial arts. And then we have evolution. The basic street fighter is much better mentally and physically then they use to be back in the day, which is a big factor in fighting. People use to be afraid of the kick after the Kung Fu movies craze and that no longer applies. People were routinely getting knocked out with hay makers before the technology era, lol. If you even told someone you practice martial arts back in the day you would have your whole school or neighborhood afraid to fight you, that no longer applies. The element of surprise can be your best weapon in a street fight. Now that you have youtube, mma, and etc. people, thugs, now see techniques that were reserved for dojangs, and sincere martial artist. This further helps prepare them mentally, physically, or both and has further decreased attendance demand from the generation who might not want to put in the work, or feels like they have seen and now know what they need about self defense. Here is the secret that most if not all of our Korean masters never told us or cared to promote. They were all mixed martial artist!! If you have a 9th degree in Tae kwon do, and a 9th degree in Hapkido, and 4th degree in Kumdo, guess what you are? They were mixed martial artist before the watered down versions came. So what I'm saying is, in this world were kids are so quick to pick up a gun, the ones who actually don't and want to train are going to try and be part of a system that they feel is more complete or mixed due to its popularity. Unfortunately compare the mixed martial arts memberships to schools that just teach one art and see what the numbers are in general. Technology is our biggest obstacle as we have never had technology like this throughout our martial arts history. Hopefully something changes, Hapkido to me is the best Korean art that I know of, I'm not saying its complete because I don't believe any art is, but its definitely one the most complete arts if that makes sense.
I deleted most of this to save some band width...but I disagree with almost everything that you wrote. MMA is a sport, not a martial art, and having rank in three arts does not mean you teach MMA...that supposition is simply ridiculous. Many schools are closing in my opinion because they are being found out as frauds and shams...nothing to do with "technology, globalization, and other things" - I have no idea how any of that relates. And as far as the "evolution of the street fighter" - maybe in video games, but not in the real world of street fights from the 25 years of them that I have seen. Hapkido is finally emerging from the shadow of disinformation and outright lies that have been told about it almost since its blossoming in the west. As a consumer, I would be super wary of the art in general. I believe that Hapkido will grow as the number of schools that actually teach this combat effective art become more recognized and the dross falls away.
Agreed...but the question is one of HOW a person might do that. From what I have seen people who are seeking authentic practice are very few. Far more people want the fantasy material, a romantic view, or are simply enamoured of the IDEA of MA rather than the actual practice. Think of how many discussions there have been about people selling rank, or making up their material or buying their own rank etc etc. Certainly there are successful schools but they seem to be very much the exception than the rule. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
MMA is a sport, not a martial art, and having rank in three arts does not mean you teach MMA...that supposition is simply ridiculous. You're right Kevin, having rank in three arts does not mean that you teach MMA, find and post were I said that, keep my words in context! MMA may or may not be a martial art depending on who you talk to, but that does not mean that it won't help keep you alive on the streets. And it also doesn't mean that others aren't going to make it their preferred choice for self defense. Many schools are closing in my opinion because they are being found out as frauds and shams...nothing to do with "technology, globalization, and other things" - I have no idea how any of that relates. That's your opinion, doesn't mean its true. It relates because we are living in a modern world were people have more demands, obligations, and options. Thus hurting the attendance of martial arts schools. You really think this world is the same as it was in the sixties, seventies, etc?? With more things to do along with more access to venues, people simply aren't putting in the time training, "in general," as they once did when there was nothing to do and nowhere to go, so to speak. Just as kids aren't outside playing in the streets anymore, as they are now on their computers and cell phones, get the relation yet? And as far as the "evolution of the street fighter" - maybe in video games, but not in the real world of street fights from the 25 years of them that I have seen. Stop it, I'm not saying that street fighters are all of sudden some Navy Seals now, but Yes, they have evolved. They aren't as dumb as they use to be, and if people use to simply be afraid of the kick back in the day but aren't anymore, I think that would point to evolution, no?? If this generation of street fighters is more aware of the techniques that a skilled fighter might have because of technology, aka youtube, google, etc. wouldn't that be evolution? Especially if the street fighter of the past had no knowledge in a sense, besides word of mouth of what they might face from skilled fighters?? Remember back in the day when people use to brush up against each other telling the other person to make a move? People don't do that anymore because they are smarter, they simply attack. Hapkido is finally emerging from the shadow of disinformation and outright lies that have been told about it almost since its blossoming in the west. As a consumer, I would be super wary of the art in general. I believe that Hapkido will grow as the number of schools that actually teach this combat effective art become more recognized and the dross falls away. Okay, now something we agree on. Yes, Hapkido is emerging from some of it's shadow of disinformation, but will it be enough for its survival? There have been so many lies told about the art that most of the truth about Hapkido may never surface. I think there is finally a consensus on who founded Hapkido, Choi Dojunim. Remember, the Korean masters that came in the beginning way before the "not so relevant, technology era that I speak of," so much of their history can not be googled or fact checked. Kevin you even said, you would be super wary of the art, so imagine how the average consumer feels? I hope I'm wrong and you're right, but I don't think its looking promising. __________________
Are there fewer Hapkido schools today than there were 10 or 20 years ago? Clearly today, at least in the pacific NW, there are far more TKD and Aikido schools than there were 20 years ago, but Hapkido doesn't seem to have ever been a wildly popular martial art. I think the idea that people don't want real martial training but like the idea of training a martial art effects almost all styles, and as we can see it seems the most popular martial arts have some of the least practical martial practice. How do we promote the spread of authentic, effective Hapkido? To do that you'd have to have successful (money) and popular (students) schools. I think the reality of that is you have to give the public what they want, even if it does mean some compromise. Maybe the solution is to have "hapkido lite" classes to get the students to support the school and also offer "real" Hapkido classes for the students who want more and are willing to put in the effort for it. Is that a viable solution, or is that to unpalatable? Someday I would like to have a Hapkido school and teach practice, effective Hapkido with high standards...someday. Currently I don't think I know enough to open a school, teach a class now and then yes, but not be the main instructor so other than by being a good student my ability to help spread the word (so to speak) is limited.
I tend to agree with Bruce above. From what I see the people showing up to classes, and this is not just confined to Hapkido, are showing up with no prior research over and above a google maps search on the art. They are showing up though with an idealised vision of what Hapkido should be. Whether it’s LARPing or boot camp that they’re they will tend to find, in any class, an aspect that appeals to that side. For those that do their homework and look for Hapkido as a standalone art as opposed to a bolt on to another art then this is the time to live in. You have, as you have said, technology at our disposal but I see it as an opportunity instead of a threat. For all the legit schools this can mean good things if you are prepared to use it properly. You have the ability to showcase your abilities online and spread the word about your school. Facebook alone gives you access to thousands of people that otherwise never would have seen your art. Dionmj, Hapkido dying??? I couldn’t disagree more with you. The overarching group that I am part of (MooMooKwan) has recently had a large group of schools join bringing with it hundreds of students. We have a competition on in Korea next year that will likely attract 800 odd students from around the world. For me, these are exciting times to be involved with Hapkido. As far as “street fighters” go, where I live I don’t think the street fighter has changed that much at all. There may be more knife attacks and maybe more gang attacks but as far as a street fighter learning techniques from YouTube I think that’s a bit farfetched. If that was the case you’d see more so called street fighters doing double leg take downs and finishing with arm bars. I just don’t see that happening anytime soon. The good old fashioned shirt grab/push followed by a haymaker still seems pretty common round here. Sorry for the scattered post. Trying to get everything down at once here.
I was hoping to have a discussion that would not get side-tracked into a discussion about the relative benefits of Hapkido as compared to MMA. That said, though, I don't think we can discount or ignore that there is an influence from the MMA community that speaks to what I suggest was a move down the wrong path many years ago. Both SUH Bok Sub and later KIMM He-young pointed out that JI Han Jae as well as KIM Moo Woong added a range of Kicking techniques in an attempt to make what they learned from CHOI Yong Sul more marketable. Their basis for comparison at the time seems to have been the explosive popularity of TAEKWONDO on the Korean peninsula and its spread to the US. In addition, both Ji Han Jae as well as MYONG Jae Nam sought to "soften" the material using Japanese Aikido as a model in an attempt to make it less demanding, less painful and to add greater structure both for the curriculum and the ranking system. While all of this may sound like good marketing decisions, I have begun to wonder if the MMA community has begun to point up how these might have been decisions that were immediately successful, but unsuccessful in the long-term. a.) I think MMA points up that that "softening" the curriculum may have drawn more consumers, but the impact to the effectiveness of the art has caused people to feel "lied to". MMA does not pretend to be an easy path, anymore than Western Boxing, but when a person walks away from an MMA class they may feel more confident about how their material will serve them. b.) I think that MMA points up that these huge never-ending curriculum that one now sees in the Hapkido community are unnecessary and may leave people feeling that they will NEVER see a light at the end of the tunnel. While I often hear people say that following a MA is a lifetime activity, Humans tend to burn-out if they are constantly told that they will never "truly master" the art. c.) I think that MMA points up that a return to utility ("K.I.S.S.") is in order, something like the shift of some TAEKWONDO folks to full-contact causing Korean TKD to more closely approximate Kick-boxing. I'm thinking that maybe Hapkido might need to shift back to its more utilitarian roots. IMHO. Best Wishes, Bruce
I occasionally get young people who are interested in MMA and ask if Hapkido would be useful for that purpose. I usually just tell them what Hapkido is and what it is meant for, that for a Hapkidoin their isn't a referee or rules, just the laws of physics and survival. One or two have expressed further interest not for MMA but just in the martial art as it is. I personally think that Hapkido offers a nice hard edge in this sugar coated, watered down world. There will always be people who want something that is effective and that they can rely upon to get the job done. Some people buy guns to kill even now.
So you are quoting what source information here? Everything you say here is based on YOUR opinion - from my perspective, most of what you said is simply opinion that does not seem to hold water where I live. Maybe your experience is different, but until you can put it to verifiable test, it remains YOUR opinion. And yes, if I were a consumer and I read all the dross about Hapkido that is still out there, I would be highly suspicious. Is Hapkido 2000 years old or 60 years old. Does it have a single founder, or a bunch of school kids that cobbled together some nights at a kung fu film and called it Hapkido? Yes, the internet is becoming useful for putting this art on its proper footing, so I certainly don't see the art as dying, maybe finally emerging as it should as an art with credibility and strength. MMA has simple definitions attached to it, despite the fact it should be MMS - or Mixed Martial Sport, it does not compare in any way to someone holding legitimate high rank in several arts, that is to say, some one with mul;tiple high ranks does not equal "MMA". Of course there might be many who find it useful for self defense, I have read articles about women taking aerobic kicky-boxy classes and kicking the crap out of attackers, as always it is the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight, so that comparison seems to have little merit.
