self defence or sport

Discussion in 'Judo' started by dawgofwar71, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    On the sim days that I've attended the aggressor is given different roles depending on the scenario.

    It could be that the instruction is not to fight if the victim gives the correct verbal and physical signals.

    It has also been the case that the aggressor is told to fight whatever signal is received.

    I found this valuable, as it gives the intended victim a chance to expose themselves to various kinds of violence and intimidation.

    This brings the pre-fight dialogue very much into play.

    On the two on one and two on two (or more) scenarios I've been in the aggressor may have the back up of his partner, or his partner may be the one trying to calm things down.

    It is a many and varied approach, trying to cover as much detail without watering down the intended drill.

    In terms of watering down the attack that certainly isn't the case.

    The quality and amount of protective equipment allows pretty much full power and while I've only ever been cut once, the equipment usually stops cuts and grazes. You feel the hits, but without the equipment you would have to ease off the power.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    What about knockouts? And what if somebody got a standing armbar? Would it be a tapand they are out?


    I'm just wondering because I really want a sim day.
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Safety is of upmost importance and everyone is able to shout "zero" if they see something they feel should stop the drill.

    It may be that when two guys/girls go to ground and someone has a neck crank you have a better view and therefore should shout "zero" to halt proceedings.

    An armbar is a great control and puts you into a position I call "bargaining position". from this point it is up to the aggressor to behave, otherwise you can easily apply a little more pressure.

    This is of course my own opinion and JWT may have a different view.

    It may be harder to make the armbar work if there are more than two attackers, just because you have now tied up your own arms and cannot hot the second guy.

    That said you have control of someone you can manipulate them to come between you and the second guy.
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I'm not saying taht I could, but i I was ggetting attacked by two guys at the same tie and a stading arm bar madea chance appearence wouldn't you just break it and deal with the other guy? If so ,how would you simulate this? I thinkthis should probably apply to all subs too.
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think people are focusing too much on what you CAN'T do on one of John's sim days rather than what you CAN.
    You can't use neck maniputlation and headlocks (because, as I understand it, the headgear provides way more leverage and control than a bare head and there are often bodies flying about...making such actions more effective and more dangerous in that setting).
    But you can whale on each other and recreate the energy of a surprise, unwanted and above all aggressive attack by a numpty.
    That's what those days are for.
    Like all training...if you want to work your head control or neck cranks then do that in a format that suits that (1 on 1 grappling in a more controlled envioronment).
     
  6. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    WELCOME
     
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    There are other equal effective methods, whether striking or grappling, that carry fewer risks of permanent harm to both the person being restrained and the restrainer. Certain types of hold and distraction techniques are banned from professional use. There is freedom with regard to what you can use in self defence, but when it comes to training people in restraint I stick to using safe methods.

    It means that one or more guys is limiting themselves to HAOV as opposed to using parts of their trained repertoire. That doesn't necessarily mean they are fighting below their actual ability.
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I can't say I've ever been in a good armbar position against a resisting opponent where actually breaking the arm was either physically possible or desirable (that's not to say in can't happen). Unless the restrained person is considerably smaller or weaker than the restrainer, most of the effective armbars come from underhooks or from rolling the shoulder like an Aikido entry from underneath - neither of which really setup for a break.

    The other technical issue is that with a well applied armbar you can exert biomechanical control through the joint regardless of pain tolerance. With a break you won't necessarily gain control if the person is drunk or drugged.

    From an arm bar we tend to fight on, in other words the arm bar is a control used to immobilise for striking or to enable us to mobilise someone out of the environment, or use as a shield, or move into another attacker. Generally speaking in multiple scenarios there is rarely time for considered 1-2 approaches as you describe and perfect one on one positions are rare.
     
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The problem with standing arm breaks is this
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3_f-Jgblqk"]Frank Mir Breaks Tim Sylvias Arm Beautiful Arm Bar - YouTube[/ame]
    Unless you can dislocate the elbow, which requires a very different technique and can't be trained safely at speed, you're probably just going to break the radial head, which isn't especially disabling, indeed as evidenced by the video above you may not even feel it for a couple of hours (I see this a lot at work).
     
  10. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Also unless you do injure the arm, they'll escape the hold anyway (which is why loads of BJJ guys go on about standing arm breaks not working, they don't grasp the difference between submission and destruction).
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If memory serves Tim Silvia was all for fighting on and was annoyed at the stoppage. :)
    Meisha Tate carried on through a very nasty dislocation.
    It seems the only real way of stopping someone fighting is via KO (strike or choke) or hurting their legs (meaning they can't get you when you run away).
    Everything else someone somewhere has fought through like it ain't no thang. :(
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The standing arm break doesn't work well because your opponent's legs still have too much freedom. A simple body spinning can easily counter your locking. IMO, all locking should end on the ground. Anything you do that can reduce your opponent's mobility is always a good thing.

    Here is an example.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  13. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Like I say, a break is different to a lock it has to be done explosively. This makes them not great for sparring. TBH I always like opponent on the floor anyway, makes it less likely I'll get hit :D
     
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That depends ob how you do your arm bars. I always trap a leg when I arm bar, unless I'm doing it as part of a blade control in which case the leg position is a secondary consideration.
     
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    i was actually meaning a postion like this:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    There are far better standing positions than that. That's really a one on one environment specific position.
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The only time I'd want to be in a position like that was if I was just about to sit back and arm-bar the bejesus out if his arm.
    And I'd want a damn sight more control of it than that.
     
  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I think it would depend on the situation. Modified slightly say, one knee on the face, and extend your hips (the further the extension, the more damage is done) and it's broken. Do it fast enough and that's one person out (or at least handicapped). Do it from a throw, ie, you have somebodires ack, fall backwards with your leg out, jump up to your knees and you're done. I'm sure there are better examples than mine, but you get the gist?
     
  19. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You'd never get an armbar off from there by sitting back though... against anyone as deadly as me at any rate. Too much gap, as soon as you sat back the elbow could be pulled out.

    Far better to scoot the knee up the armpit kneel on the chap and then finish it either sitting back or I'd probably prefer inverted.
     
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's the only photo I could find as I don't know the Japanese term.
     

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