Sam Tam demonstrating the form

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by 23rdwave, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    There is a reason I said "with softness" and not "being soft". I guess I was too subtle for you. :p

    How about a less subtle pop quiz for you. In the following video, from 36 seconds to the end of the video, GM Sam Tam's uke flies into the wall nine times. Where in these 9 times is GM Sam Tam using "external engine" and why?

    I'm only using "external engine" to use your terminology. This isn't a term I would normally use to describe things.

    Please be specific and check your work before submitting... :hat:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LArfW-RY2Bc"]Push Hands Tai Chi Seminar in Portland with Grand Master Sam Tam - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I know this isn't your original point Rebel, but these sorts of demonstrations just don't impress me at all. Compliant partner who isn't even incorporating any basic defenses taught in the first day of most TCC classes. Poor unrooted stance- holding his arms stiffly for the GM to push him back. What is this supposed to demonstrate?

    I don't see any great demonstration of anything besides a compliant partner not incorporating any TCC - no wonder he gets knocked off balance so easily. GM takes steps moving into someone in that stance and pushes against stiff arms in a high stance. No neutralizations, no redirecting. Just letting him break his posture first thing..........

    Not saying that the person doesn't have skill, just that I don't see it there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It isn't really extraordinary. Pretty normal stuff. I feel because it is just normal stuff it is a really good demonstration of some of the principles. There are some hidden gems in there too.

    But otherwise SHHHHHHHH. Ixnay on the rest. I'm waiting for Avenger to answer.
     
  4. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award


    Aren't we all and for Avenger's sake let's hope he does exactly that.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "blah, blah, blah...qi...blah,blah, REAL internal...blah,blah...you don;t get it...blah,blah...come to Japan"

    This prediction brought you by the power of scrying!
     
  6. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Just listen to the video, he is explaining to you what he is doing.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Should be easy for YOU to answer then.

    I'm still waiting.
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    But that would require him saying something specific and not simply naysaying everything others venture. You'll notice he drops off from a thread for a bit whenever he would be required to do so and pops back up later.
     
  9. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    The perils of bad, stiff, unrooted form, I think and how easy it is to manipulate, even without Tai Chi Chuan. Sometimes I think a demonstration isn't impressive because you're only watching it with your eyes, and if you have a lot of experience, basic things will make you scoff because it's too simple and you're way ahead, but to someone else without all that, and to the fresh partner getting pushed, he just learned something about his weak balance and a little old man just gave him a jolt of fresh air.

    The internal skill of old people is evident in the very fact that they can do Tai Chi in the park in the morning at all, and aren't chair-bound hunchbacks. That's impressive Tai Chi too (- Chuan)

    To really get into the real of 'impressive' in the non-compliant, more alive, Chuan spectrum you need to really examine push hands competitions and avoid demonstrations entirely (in my opinion), especially if they are by old masters, because they'll always seem underwhelming (it's an old guy pushing some kid :D). Nothing seems more cliche, right? People further along in their training generally want to see PUSHING, that's the general sense I get from my Tai Chi Chuan brothers and sisters.

    The USKSF has a pretty good Tai Chi push hands competition each year, they just had this one. These are actual Tai Chi Chuan practitioners competing, so I'd find it interesting if anyone thinks this isn't a competition of 'internal' skill.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fahF2BFen5I"]U.S. Kuo Shu Federation 2016 Restricted Step Push Hands - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  10. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    One reason I have mentioned sifu Liang Shou Yu was because the martial arts community is very familiar with other, at least in Canadian cities. My sifu was even recognised when in California

    Avenger, i would have thought with your information on internal practices, you might know others in your community who are respected for their talents . Where is your community ?

    LFD
     
  11. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    Nobody wants to see pushing or push hands for that matter. Push hands is just an exercise to learn and refine listening skills just as grapplers do when they roll. Push hands comps are always two unskilled guys trying to push or trying not to push but they always end up pushing each other. Your video proves that point. Did anyone want to see that or think it was a display of internal skill? I doubt it.

    Zeng Xiang Bo has a lot of videos on youtube with good push hands lessons.

    [ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1Ezw5oBng"]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa1Ezw5oBng[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  12. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Thanks for the great example of external fighting only.
     
  13. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Sorry, not big into politics of arts, tournament organizers will probably will know a lot of names.
     
  14. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Why? What mechanics specifically make it external instead of internal? What mechanics would have to be present for it to be internal?
     
  15. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    They are using strength against strength, leaning forward and pushing. Push hands is a misnomer. One trains to accept incoming force, let it pass through, then redirect it. Let the other guy push you. None of the competitors has bao, the embracing quality developed in zhan zhuang, that allows one to feel the slightest touch and respond accordingly.
     
  16. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    My video proves the opposite, that people who train nei jia quan can illustrate their training in competition outside the realm of Net wordsmiths like yourself.

    Do you really think those two folks competing are unskilled in internal practices, and that isn't an example of internal gong competition? Guoshu???, really brother? That's the best place to display internal martial skill for almost 100 years.

    To answer your question definitively, yes they were displays of internal skills, and you haven't proven otherwise. Are you suggesting, like Avenger, that this skill is so mysterious it can't be caught on tape in an alive manner?

    Shennanigans on you sir!!! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Then respectively, I think your knowledge of nei gong is poor, your methods unrefined, and your rhetoric, lacking. :D

    The truth is you can't show a single example of internal martial skill, and I've actually posted some the best examples possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  18. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    You don't appear to even know what you're talking about. 'Strength against strength' is a misrepresentation of nei gong. Nei gong can definitely be displays with strength as well as redirection, exactly what those GUO SHU videos I posted show. If YOU don't want to see those videos, I question your commitment to the arts.

    "None of the competitors has..." this is another reaching statement and appeal to authority no one here is qualified to make, but even so, to claim there's no redirection or acceptance of incoming force...have you ever competed like this? My guess is no. So without your own qualifications, let's assume this is 'internal power', and every word you post in summation, is not.

    And why did you just claim they're not 'embracing quality..in zhan zhuang'? I think you like Avenger are talking about things you don't have any experience in.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Avenger I'm going to take a guess you're not big into the world of Tai Chi Chuan, PERIOD.

    Care to prove me wrong? :D
     
  20. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    He's playing a game with us. He's trying to suggest that if it even remotely approaches looking like effort, it's 'external' and not nei gong. BZZZZZZZZZ.

    I'm pretty comfortable saying he doesn't know what mechanics make anything work, has no real training under any notable masters, and can't prove for the life of him that he's ever tested his theories in practice.

    I'm ALWAYS open to being proven wrong, but it requires actual evidence, not posts of "pfft! THAT'S not internal".

    The thread currently suffers two posters, 23rdwave, and Avenger, trying to play this head game. It was proof enough when I posted COMPETITION that they started to distance themselves and their mystical interpretations of Nei Gong, from reality. They both pointed to a Guo Shu video of Tai Chi schools competing, and poo-pooed it as not Nei Gong. That puts into question their entire posting history with respect to Nei Gong, in my book.
     

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