Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

http://www.cityaikido.com/nadeau.html

That's easy enough to resolve with one email..

Wait out.

Edit

Email sent to Nadeau Shihan.

 

I'm going to make an attempt to drag this thread back in to the realms of the topic: Kote Gaeshi

In regards to peoples comments about the raising of Uke's wrist/hand. the way I have been taught is that you draw uke out and off balance after the initial contact/strike (shomen uchi in this case) and positioning your hand, holding ukes wrist, back onto your centre line before the throw. This causes ukes posture to sink as their wrist comes up and away from their centre. Accompany this the a strong atemi to the face to break the balance completely then throw

With the actual throw we tend to step in behind uke at a 45 degree angle. If you throw on the line you stated on Uke can some time regain their balance and make the technique useless. It also may give them a chance to bring their free hand into play. By steeping in behind them as you throw the have no option but to go with the direction with which their balance has been breaking. It's harder for uke to escape from and a very effective technique

Here are to of the best Yoshinkan Sensei's doing Kote Gaeshi. Takeno is very dynamic and doing a shortened version of it whilst Chida is doing the basic full length version.
throws starts at 1.48

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AHRm5uAE8"]YouTube - 養神館åˆæ°—é“ã€kotegaeshi ,Chida and Takeno sensei[/ame]

Would love to read opinions from other Aikido styles about the differences you notice in the way you do things

 

Thanks for that, again you can see basic principles here too and the hands stay in front of toris centre at all times, plus the hand is raised just enough to effect the elbow,shoulder then centre. If not Uke would still receive a sore wrist but nothing else as there would be a huge hole to strike again

 

That's more like it!

Thanks for putting the thread back on topic mate.

 

Not exactly trying to go back off topic here, but embra, I'm not certain that an irimi nage is such a good defense against a knife, unless you control the knife arm throughout the throw to the ground.

And the same for AikiMac, not sure sayu nage is best in this context either, unless again arm is controlled throughout, all the way to the ground.

Now, kotegaeshi on the other hand (as in a different technique, not literally on "the other hand") is probably safer, taking these into consideration: staying off line, and at angle to blade. Also, don't focus on catching/grabbing the hand/wrist... It can be very much like climbing the tree...all the way to the wrist, or close to it for the takedown or throw.

Also, with this kote, usu of the environment is more practical...use of jamming blade arm or hand/ body of uke into wall, car, concrete, light post, table...going lower, or onto the throw allows one to use their feet to help disarm, or crush the hand/fist of attacker.

Anyways, kotegaeshi has many practical applications prior to the throw, and equally one is in position pretty much throughout to deliver atemi, atemi similar to that found n shihonage.

 

Kind of the opposite of what I've discovered, Izu.

The trained knife fighters I've been around were very good at countering any grab to the wrist. I might work once, but then after they experienced it, they always found a way to cut out of it in future attempts.

On the other hand, iriminage and variants where you just blasted through their face did work. The key was getting off the line of attack, aligning the body to attack through a kuzushi, and entering deeply. The iriminage is all atemi and the throw is not drawn out but in an instant.

If necessary, checking the attacker's knife arm to the side or into them was generally a good idea, but this did not control the weapon for more than a moment. It is more important, IMHO, to neutralize the attacker, so the check attacks the delivery system to neutralize the attacker for a moment.

This also cleared the path creating an opening to attack through.

Anyway, just what I've discovered in my training.

Edit: Kote gaeshi, as I stated didn't work as a grab, but I did find cutting down the elbow worked if the attacker was leaning forward. Kind of like this variation from Chiba Sensei (almost more of an Ude Garami):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X00K8ur_jM"]YouTube - Chiba Sensei: Shomenuchi kotegaeshi[/ame]


In honesty, there are a lot of people better at kote gaeshi than me, so maybe they could pull it off where I don't. I also see atemi BEFORE kote gaeshi in old footage. Atemi to the eyes, etc. I almost think of kote gaeshi as a result of a failed irimi, where the attacker strikes first.

 

This has to be captured for the biggest load of baloney ever Award!

Even WushuRichard could not get to this level of gibbering tripe

An absolute classic.

 

Please, you must believe roadtoad he has trained under the instruction of Saito and fully understood what Tomiki thought and taught. Both of these Shihan were major students of Ueshiba.
What is funny that I have photo's of Japanese Instructors I have trained with, as I bet do most other Yudansha who contribute to this forum.

 

ummm, it might be by today's "high" standards, but I'm fairly sure I read the shoes on hands bit in some martial arts magazine in the early 1980s, might even have been in a Blackbelt magazine article.

I really don't think roadtoad just made that up. I am one to believe he learned it somewhere or read it somewhere.

 

I agree with you for once.

However; providing you are controlling your opponent's ability to function, IE you are controlling their balance, their centre, and cutting through their intent, irimi nage works. Even against a knife.

- Sokumen Irimi

 

It really depends on the attacker to how much control you can exert on the weapon arm. In some cases you can establish control throughout, and in other cases you might only be able to neutralize the weapon for a moment and do your damage.

To be avoided is trading blows with a knife. Also to be avoided is leaving vital areas open to attack... present only bone to a blade, do not expose arteries or vital areas. Never let the blade point at you while in close combat.

Now get out your polyester suit and dance to "Staying Alive" disco tunes... This be the late 70's version of knife awareness:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo"]YouTube - Too close - dont underestimate the knife[/ame]

How well would kotegaeshi work under these conditions, how well would iriminage?

Controling the weapon is of concern, but of major concern is not getting killed and stopping the attacker from continuing. IMHO.

Disclaimer about the video time reference: By the way, the video is from "Surviving Edged Weapons", which I first saw maybe in the early 1990s. I think it came out around mid-1980s. My comment about 1970s is that the video is mostly about knife training as being inadequate in the 1970s. Therefore the scenerios may have been filmed in the 1980s, but the context was the inadequate training methods were the ones from the 1970s still being used in law enforcement.

 

you and I in agreement for once? I don't believe it... MAP is probably reversing its rotational axis about now...first round is on me.

But seriously, yes agree with your aspects of control.

And nice picture. Never said it wouldn't work, just mentioning the cognizance required to do it safely, as you point out.

And AikiMac, footwork is part of it, if using for distance one has thrown their attacker who will get back up and likely attack again.

Control of the arm here as on Daves photo is paramount, and a similar control with iriminage should also be taken into consideration, after the throw and as uke is falling, or dropping down, one takes the weapon arm and traps it on the way down with your aihamni arm that you used to execute the throw.

Also just to add, kotegaeshi can be done against an extended, retracted or in motion arm/ attack.

But the reality is that anyone of us would likely do whatever technique presented itself in the moment be it ikkyo, irimi, kote, atemi...

 

Mr. Smith (UKA Principal) talked about "elbow to little finger" the context being; the cutting motion would move from the elbow through to the little finger whilst in contact with uke, the "hiji" would form part of that atemi, as you make the off-line irimi entry, the elbow is raised as if making jodan no kamae with a sword. This creates a strike to the jaw. As the arm is fully raised (as in the pic), this adds to the kuzushi already being introduced through the hips (and by the atemi), the continued entry through uke's posture and the resulting cutting down of the raised arm generates a fairly dynamic application.

You control the nature of the ukemi, you can allow uke to rotate into the direction of the waza - especially if uke is inexperienced or, as with what's being done in the image (because a knife is at play) uke is cut down through my center-line whilst 'pushing' through his centre with my posture. This creates a drop-fall onto his back and down at my feet (rather than him rolling away) and is bordering on ara waza application

Dave

 

Yeah, you say I'm a big piece of hooey, but I don't see anyone here that can stop Dan Inosanto's (an actual filipino) knife attacks, as shown in that video, with kotegaeshi, not even Chiba Sensei.
If you watch his attacks, just think how much better every one of those guys would have done if they had their shoes on their hands.

 

what would mr law officer have on his feet? just socks presumably? what benefit would the shoes give? maybe some minor protection, nothing more, but at the loss of tactility of the hands.

unarmed vs a knifeman who knows what he is doing, like in the vid; flight and evasion would be my choice. I would be very cautious about closing in real circumstances like the vid simulates i.e. your choice of timing and positioning when entering to close and finish has to be very, very good.

shoe-do? just can't see it toady.

 

If blocking Dan Inosanto's knifework is your yardstick I would just give up now because you won't get to that level

And shoes on your hands is possibly the dumbest comment I have read

 

That was the sound of me adding another ass-hat to the ignore list.​