Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

@ rebel,

I have to wonder at this point also if the uke might have been a little stiff, or offering some tension/ resistance that necessitated going around the power, which wouldn't necusarilliy be something uke could pick up on depending on the degree to which they are adding so much energy themselves, and how quickly the motion happens/ the situation unfolds.

Or, if the practice approach is such that you always train as though uke is armed, this would also make sense to raise the arm.

Note I am not refuting uke lifting their arm on their own, just wondering about other possibilities.

 

Good thoughts. I think at some point the technique changes as necessary. It might end up being uke thrown forward instead of kote gaeshi (e.g. uke might just fall on their face). Just some thoughts.

Another thing that happens is uke may want to retract their arm (rather than leave it extended). This is why it is important to "wash through". If uke retracts the arm, you are already following it in to where you are hip to hip. And they are downed (sometimes a sweep is added here). Again, little energy for them to counter.

I think if you raise the arm, using force, you actually counter yourself. Unless uke is already stunned by a kick to the groin or something, IMHO. I trained knife with some knife guys and if I raised their arm, such as to break their arm over my shoulder, they were always able to counter it. I think this would even be worse if I tried it against someone with lots of experience in Tai Chi.

Don't forget that when you raise your own arms, this leaves your torso open as well.

The only ones I've see able to "walk someone down" by raising the hand was when the tori was much taller than uke, but this was in training and they weren't considering that their torso was open. Like if someone had a knife in their other hand.

One thing learning from knife training is that it takes almost no strength for a sharp blade to cut to bone. If someone has me all twisted up, but I'm still standing, I could in many cases still cut them good without the need of hip or shoulder rotation, just using my arm to thrust. Those that stand to the side thinking they are safe are only doing that for training something. In real situations, it is constant movement, constant pressure, constant attack (stunning and unbalancing), IMHO.

 

oh yes, for now, the filipinos are the world's greatest knife fighters. Its next to impossible to get them to teach you if you're not a filipino. I have a few friends. The two knife thing is the best.

I'm also, on the kote gaeshi thing, still dealing with the double spin move, reversing sides, not the walk through. I'm surprised to see Isoyama do it that way. I think he was possibly bed crippled for years. He's way different now. No one trained harder when he was in his heyday, but he is greatly reduced now. Too bad. Doesn't make what I'm saying false, but I have no way to prove most of it.
I think there's only one of the original crowd left around iwama, I can't remember his name, but he could put a shihonage ura on you faster than an eye blink.
Its still the greatest technique against any giant that trys to pick you up by the shirt in front of your chest.

 

This isn't a double post. Just me reading your post differently.

I wasn't saying that uke moves their arm on their own as a conscious decision. Since uke is unbalanced, what they do with their arm is going to be muscle memory and instinctive. What I was saying is that as you torque uke's wrist, you cannot immobilize uke's movement in all directions. There is always a direction that uke can move that is more open than others. For example, if I put my thumb between the little finger and ring finger knuckles to apply kotegaeshi, the weak point is through my thumb... I use my other hand to block that direction. The other directions: up, down, towards tori and back towards uke still remain. The direction towards tori is blocked by the structure of the technique when you "move around the sword" (see below note). This leaves up, down, and towards uke as open vectors. Through the process of the technique as a powerful twist, uke is taken through all three open vectors until the last one down, brings them to the ground.

I see no problem if uke's hand lifts up as part of this. The danger is if by lifting up you compromise your structure. For example if uke's hand goes up and this feed in to their ability to thrust the knife into you. An example would be if during kote gaeshi, tori cuts his own throat with uke's tanto.

Note: The principle of "moving around the sword" (e.g. don't move the weapon, you move around the weapon and keep the weapon protecting your center line), is demonstrated in kote gaeshi technique to prevent uke from thrusting the weapon into tori also at the same time it is not giving uke energy that they can use to counter with.

Anyway, I guess a test is to make sure you don't cut your own throat with uke's knife. This pretty much should be a tell all on if what you are doing is practical.

 

ye, fully picked up on an understood what you meant. Experienced it, felt it.

Besides, I'm the one that writes such that folks can't understand.

 

FMA is a lot more accessible these days. There is even Eskrido (a version of Doce Pares, that is a Filipino martial art that is a combination of Doce Pares, Aikido, and Judo, with lesser influences from other Japanese systems).

Is the kote gaeshi at 4:16 minute mark the double spin move you are talking about? (also at 8:12 and 8:23)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3636uWgpBo"]YouTube - Morihei Ueshiba - Aikido (1935)[/ame]

 

Yes, exactly. This is the oldest videos I've ever seen about osensei.
This is all quite different than 'Tomiki Aikido', its evolving into actual modern aikido techniques. But still, in some of those kotegaeshi against a sword, he steps through. Its just that first one that is what I'm talking about.
Also, you'll see in some of his own sword techniques, his spin move. That's where he got it, not from Ba Kua, or any other chinese technique.

 

great. congratulations.

 

You claim quite a lot of MA Toady on your bio.

Were all these practices as mysterious and secretive as that which you encountered with Aikido when training with Ueshiba and Tohei?

 

I never worked out with Tohei. He was in the states when I was in Japan. I only saw him once.
Mysterious and secretive would be your point of view. Remember, I was raised on an Indian Reservation, working under a man that could make it rain.
Now, THAT would be mysterious and secretive.
Ueshiba was very open about what he was doing. No one could understand him, that's all.
What's 'MA'?
Anyway, no, I have filipino guros, that show me stuff.
I was just speaking, according to my age, long ago, you could never get filipinos to open up, they're probably the last racial group to do so.
But now, the lid is off. Its sort of like the chinese opening their secrets up to the outside world in the 60s. I was in the 'first wave' of that event.

 

I'm really struggling to see what any of this crap has to do with any Aikido techniques.

 

There isn't much, if any; but at least its contained within this thread's boundaries (for now.)

 

Hey, we're covering a period of , counting the indian martial arts, over sixty years.
The knife attack in japan was probably 1963. I worked out with filipino knife fighters starting probably 2005.

 

What the ....????

 

Hey, indians will always be the red stain on the white blanket of america's 'manifest destiny'
Since all those original whites were europeans, why should I expect any of you to understand us?