Christianity isn't about going to church, following rules, or anything. Christianity is simply a spirital relationship with Jesus Christ. I know some pretty bad christians who have sinned alot and I'm not perfect either. The beauty of christianity is that we can confess all of our sins to Jesus and he will forgive them forever. It isn't a religion but a relationship. The only way to god is through Jesus Christ. John 3:16 is God speaking directly through his prophets, it's the whole non-decieving truth. -(Sorry about posting my previous reply twice......computer problems)
Jesus isn't the only person who ever preached love and compassion. He was a good guy but he made a lot of mistakes and he didn't even leave any original writing. There is as much evidence for the christian faith as there is for any other major religion so why not just forget all the spiritual stuff and learn to respect each other as human beings - not to get a reward by being allowed into heaven? Would the message that Jesus spread be less valid and worthwhile if he were just a man? No... so who cares whether he was or not? As someone who has no religious belief whatsoever, I believe the most important thing is human dignity. Religion is a system of state control over citizens - it is icing and tradition which is put in heavier and heavier layers over what is at the root a universal message - to treat everyone with respect. I don't understand why people don't just follow that message, instead being tied up with the 'faith' and 'denomination' issues which foster contempt and division between groups of people.
All other baggage aside...and whether isolated people believe it's "an over used phrase"... Christianity is not a religion - it's essence is a relationship. Whether ANYONE likes it or not...it is not a leap of reason to invest one's faith in a Bible. Those who choose not to are free to formulate their opinions like anyone else. No human has the "right" to tell another - your quotes are "over used". Who gives that person the right to denouce the sincerity of another? No one. That's called intolerance...tolerance does not imply that you have to accept another's opinions. People are free to believe whatever they wish. The study of the canonization of Scripture is very interesting - but I doubt, save those who were there, that ANYONE can suggest that the Bible contains only 15% of scripture. What an absurd saying...how could anyone possible know if we even have record of some of what was written. Now...we come back to the real issue. Some choose to have faith...other's don't. Some believe...other's don't. Free will indicates you can believe whatever you like. Some have figures of Buddha sitting on their mantles - they believe they are worshipping God. I belive they are not. We who have embraced Christianity do not believe all paths lead to God. This offends the human sense of "fairness" and "oughtness". We don't like anyone challenging our ability to believe as we desire. After all, most of us are pretty selfish at the core. I can feel the "how dare you" sentiment arise in this room. You think my understanding of Christianity is futile? Then fine, don't embrace it. It's not my job to convince you otherwise. But...don't be surprised that I actually believe that those who don't accept Christ WILL spend eternity in Hell. Don't be suprised when I tell you that my chosen religion teaches that all paths don't lead to God. I don't believe that Islam, Bahai, Raelians, etc., all have it right. But again...what is the pivotal word there? BELIEVE. Christianity is not about perfection - it's about serving a perfect Savior. An application to one's life that requires faith to believe that God desired to share with mankind his "way" to get to him. It requires faith to believe that God inspired 40 or so authors to write a collection of works over about 1200-1500 years that would contain all that was necessary for salvation. Is it possible that politicizing has "marred" what actually has made its way to current bible translations? Of course - but HERE is the catch...if a Christian executes faith in God to start the process...then it's not a leap to believe that God superintended the process. If I believe that God exists and if I believe that He sent His Son to die for me - it is that - BELIEF. I cannot challenge someone else's belief on the basis that I am selfish and think it's unfair. You are free to believe as you wish - just respect the beliefs of others. Too often the eccentric religions of the world expect tolerance/respect for their beliefs...but desire to denigrate Christianity for its beliefs. What wanton hypocrisy exists where someone actually assumes- I don't buy your religion because I just don't buy it. For further discussion to be fruitful...understand the necessary launchpad of the Christian. We have embraced the Bible as God's authoritative word. If two attempt to discuss this matter and don't have the same starting point...they can never intellectually cross paths...they are going in opposite directions from the beginning.
Defending intolerant views behind a buzzword like "belief" doesn't change the fact that you think every non-Christian is, essentially, a heretic and unworthy of the same respect as yourself. This is precisely why Christianity has such a bloody history. How can you not understand why expressing such a belief is insulting and offensive to the other 90% of the people in the world who are not Christians? If your "belief" is that everybody is damned to an eternity of cruel suffering, except for yourself and the relatively small minority of people who believe exactly the same way--all because they don't accept some obscure historical figure as their lord and savior--then I think it would be prudent to keep that belief to yourself. Respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours. Unfortunately, your beliefs make such a mutual respect impossible. In one sentence you asked people to respect your beliefs, but in the very next sentence you proceeded to disrespect other religions by calling them "eccentric." You want respect yet are bound by your faith not to give it in return. Did I hear someone mention hipocracy? I have known several more enlightened Christians who believe Christ can come into people's lives in many different forms. Whether you call him by one name or another, it makes no difference. In this way, it is understood that Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, and others all have the same opportunity to reach heaven as you. They may use different words, but those words describe the same divine experiences. The bible is just one means to a common end. Good people are not sent to hell for all eternity simply because they experience the divine spirit through Shiva instead of Jesus. By the way, none of the many millions of people who practice the religions I listed above think you are going to hell. Think about that.
Belief is inherently personal - if 90% of the world accept what I classify as untruth...that is their decision. An interesting point - and entirely your own opinion. I can easily dismiss your entire statement in much the same way. Opinion - belief - free will - believe what you want. There is a huge following of Christians. Truth will be born out some day. Interesting that Jesus is listed as an "obscure" historical figure...who so changed the world that he altered our very calendar. Apparently you don't understand the meaning of eccentric...especially as it related to my discussion. That's, OK. Understand it as deviation from accepted norm...and didn't I say that "to me" that was Christianity? So...you've chosen to respond in total ignorance to my post. Being aligned with my faith, which stipulates that non-Christianity can not be correct, does not make me a hypocrite. I am tolerant of many views which I find to be implausible and devoid of truth. The people are "enlightened" because they appeal to your selfish sense of "oughtness" as I pointed out before. I stipulate that those who do not accept JESUS only are not Christian anyways. Perhaps the tenets of their respective faiths don't compel them to live for something. The postmodern idea of "your truth is good for you and mine is good for me" denies absolute truth. I believe (notice that word again) that the Bible contains ABSOLUTE truth. Your desire to refute it because "it's just nicer to let everyone do what they want" misses the point entirely.
Your defensive response simply drives my point home. You continue to demand respect for your beliefs while simultaneously telling everybody else how ignorant and unworthy they are. What rubbish. Don't ask for respect unless you are willing to give it in return.
First of all - Christianity is a religion. It is a structured, politicised belief system based on a supernatural deity. What else could it be? Any belief system that says those who turn up at church on sunday and read a certain book are somehow more worthy of respect and reward than someone who embodies the principles of love and compassion but happens to reject that religion... in my opinion, that is a dangerous belief. In modern times, that kind of message fosters contempt and hostility. Although I am non-religious, I have every respect for other faiths, but I think certain brands of Christianity are dangerous. Look at the Vatican compliance with the Nazis, the division between faiths in Ireland, the recent pseudo-religious American campaign. I respect the christian faith, it has so much to offer, but not those who turn ANY faith into a political tool. I worked in Kosovo refugee camps after the war and personally saw missionaries come to the camps and only hand out money if they could come inside and try to convert the muslim families to christianity. I taught children who didn't understand a word of english but could sing every word of "jesus loves me" (they didn't have a clue what they were singing). These are people treading on years of indigenous tradition for the sake of personal gratification, and that is something I can't stand.
I grew up in South America and toured the world in the last 30 years. The behavior of missionaries everywhere I went was less than admirable. Not always offensive like you described in Kosovo, but definitely not in touch with local religious beliefs and culture. I live in RP China and the lack of religious freedom is not good, but it has throttled the Christian missionaries.
For everyone in the entire world (this board included )arguing about religion I feel inclined to mention that assaulting your own opinions and assumptions is always much more beneficial than assaulting the opinions or assumptions you perceive of others. You can change yourself but you cant change others...
Could i just ask. How do any of you religous folkes (unlike mys self) define something as untrue. I mean you can't use any logical means to disprove any religion. Their religions have just as much evidence for their gods and beliefs as any other. Secondly if you believe it is all down to "Just knowing" or "feeling" then would you belive what a dilusional person said. I mean to them tehy "just know" whatever they believe. BUt how is this any different form religion BTW i respect religous practice and have many religous friends. BUt that doesn't stop some friendly disscusion. So don't take anything i say personaly? NZRIC I'm alitle confused. U said you were a taoist apheist. I was under the impression that taosits had gods.:S
For me I don't just defend the existense of God, but also the clarity of God. And a handful of religions do contradict their beliefs. Not only through what they do physically, also through what they say: Example--The Trinity the belief that three beings in one Godhead. There are so many views like this, but Jesus is viewed as "The Only God." *A christian will say,"Jesus is God." ---If Jesus is the "Only God" or "Almighty" how come Jesus prayed, esspecially for power? Why did Jesus refer to another God as "The Father"? Why does the another God refer to Jesus as "begotten son"? My conclusion Jesus is a God, but not the "Almighty God." Think of it as God as King and Jesus as Prince. So Jesus is not his father. A christian might say,"Jesus and God are equal, even if Jesus is not 'The Almighty' God." -- Why does jesus pray at all to this other god? They reply,"It was his way of showing he was humble." --But they are equal?? Why does the bible say,"God is the God of Gods, King of kings"? In my conclusion they're not equal. If they were equal Jesus wouldn't need to show an example of being humble to "Equal" God.
"...NZRIC I'm alitle confused. U said you were a taoist apheist. I was under the impression that taosits had gods.:S..." You're right - they have some pretty scary gods too, but I thought it better to try to bundle my life philosophy into an easy pigeonhole than to write screeds on my individual meaning of life. I'm not a taoist, and I'm not an atheist, but I respect those two systems because taoism links easily with science (evolution/flow/even fractal structure of the universe can all be seen as relating to the concept of the Tao). Also, I have no religious belief so by definition I'm an atheist (although I resent the fact that many people believe atheism is a belief system in itself. It's not!!).
Religous Daoism has as many rituals and traditions as any other religon.Western Society has often seen to embrace Philosophical Daoism without the burden of its religous(and cultural) brother.This may be a good thing or a bad thing, nevertheless the interpretation of Daoism in the West is often quite different then its understanding in the countries of Origin.
NZRIC, mi think we share a common kind of philosophy. I take things from many religions on. Taoism makes alot o sense to me personally. BUt i am not taoist or anytrhing else. Onee thing that i do notbelieve in is a god but i do believe thereis a high liklit hood tha there are much more complex and powerful beings than us somewhere. As for the diffeent gods of different religions.........they all worship teh same god so i don't know what teh argument is about. they simpl have different ways of representing them. (Even taoism , hinduism and buddhism) But with all of that said i am promaialy an athesit. BUt believe there is most likely something else but do not subscribe to any religions of this something else.Nor do i totaly exclude the possibility. I make no sense
The Trinity is a tough one. There's a lot of support either way for Jesus being and not being God. I personally strongly believe that he is the Father. There's lots of Scripture to support a Trinity position. Who would best know than His own hand chosen Apostle's that Worshiped Him and wrote about others Worshiping Him. Were they really breaking the 1st commandment ?!? Thou shall have no other Gods before Me ? Nah.
The problem is separation. The question of change should not be separated between yourself and others. Self reflection and change is rare and requires some degree of enlightenment. Most people do not want to change outside the 15% of the reality their comfortable with. They will often change churches, but rarely change religions. People rarely ask the question WHY are the Christian and others are Moslems, Jews or whatever. 95+% of all people have the same basic religious beliefs of their parents or the piers they grew up with. Most people will say their religious belief was their choice but most people in reality accept what they are taught as children and they do not chose their faith based on the 'Individual investigation of truth'. Despite people mostly staying where they are and not changing. They for the most part do not now their own world well. I have changed my religion and my profession several times and moved around the world. My total life is nothing like my brothers and sisters who remain relatively unchanged. The basis of change is knowledge. Most people are relatively ignorant of the world arond them literally swimming in a sea of digital knowledge in computers. For an example I will offer a simple question that I will bet no one will be able to answer. What is the oldest book in the world? Not literally a bound book with pages, but a story of the size of a novel with characters and a plot. Hint: It is older than any record related to the Bible. Unlike the Bible we have most of the text complete in original stone and clay tablets.
