There was actually an attempt to have British milk-chocolate classed as something like a chocolate substitute because here we use vegetable oil instead of something else. There was also a row over what makes a cake a cake and a biscuit a biscuit. But that was a legal case of some kind.
Just some information of free trade agreements with the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/bilateral-relations/ http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/policies/international/facilitating-trade/free-trade/index_en.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_trade_agreements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements
That really proves the point that there is no need to be in the EU to do trade with them. I tried to get some accutrate figures of how much we actually pay. This was the nearest I could find http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/05/...-claim-vs-the-real-costs-of-uk-eu-membership/ and it was about £10 Billion when you factor in what we get back in rebates...........If I remember correctly the conservatives wanted to cut £11 billion of our public spending, here is an easy way to do it without people losing jobs.
Every dead economist who ever walked the earth just span in their graves when you hit send on that post. This is why it is dangerous to let ordinary people make these kind of decisions. The global economy is a vast complex system and you want to reduce is to the level of a 10 year old's maths homework.
I'm sorry, which side of the argument are you on again? Are you making the argument that if the UK leaves the EU we would lose all of those trade agreements and would struggle to get terms that are as agreeable if we tried to negotiate on our own? (Also know as the correct argument). Or are you trying to show that since other countries have agreements with the EU that an independent UK could get those same kind of agreements...even though the terms we would be able to negotiate would not be as agreeable as we have as part of the EU because we would be negotiating with a hostile party who we had just screwed over and because we would be negotiating from a position of weakness?
Why do I need to pick sides? That's a rather childish playground approach. I prefer to explore all sides of the argument. The links I posted were just general background information. Since there seems to be a lack of any actual real information being discussed in this thread. It seemed like the sensible thing to do and go out and get some. However if you want to pick sides. I'd be all for leaving Europe. As the links show there are plenty of free trade agreements between the European Union and non-EU countries, blocks of countries or other organisations or groups. That being the case there is absolutely no need to be in the EU to trade with the EU. Which somewhat torpedoes one of the main arguments for being a part of the EU. Namely trade relations.
Talking of playground arguments. What happens during the intervening period between us leaving the EU and arranging all of those trade agreements? How long do you think that would take? How expensive do you think that process is likely to be? What possible reason would the EU have to offer us terms better than or equal to those we currently receive as a member nation? They wouldn't. Trade between the UK and Europe would inevitable be more expensive than it is at the moment, costing the UK money on every single trade. What possible reason would the rest of the world have for offering the UK the same terms as they offer the EU? They wouldn't. One of the benefits of EU membership is that the shear size of the block puts the EU in a position of great strength at the negotiating table. The UK, alone doesn't command anywhere near that much strength. And what of tourism? Will we all need to start applying for visas to visit the continent? And the EHIC? It sounds trivial but when you multiple trivial by tens of millions of visits, not looking so happy for the British economy. It is no coincidence that all three parties are aligned on this issue. If there was a solid reason for leaving the EU, you'd think that one of the big parties would think it was a good idea. If we leave the EU, we're still going to have to deal with Europe as our closest neighbours, but outside the EU, we wont have any influence in the decisions that will still affect us.
Why are you assuming we'd need to leave before putting together a new trade package? I don't see why we couldn't negotiate a new trade deal as part of the exit strategy.
But even so, the terms of any subsequent agreements are going to be substandard compared to our existing arrangements through the EU.
You've got the EU with 500m citizens. You've got the UK with 60m citizens. Who needs a trade deal more? UK businesses who want easier access to 500m consumers or the EU, who only stand to gain a maximum of 60m new consumers? Who is in the better bargaining position here? Who can afford to wait it out for better terms? Why do you think the EEC was formed in the first place? That's before you factor in the fact that the UK leaving the EU will hurt it and cause political friction. You honestly think the French would turn down the opportunity to kick us in the nuts?
Quote "Every dead economist who ever walked the earth just span in their graves when you hit send on that post. This is why it is dangerous to let ordinary people make these kind of decisions. The global economy is a vast complex system and you want to reduce is to the level of a 10 year old's maths homework." Are you upset because this guy is a pro European and still can't justify the huge amount that we give to the EU ? As to ordinary people making these decisions, I assume that you are an ordinary person and not a world renowned economist so your opinion holds no more weight than anyone elses you just use rudeness to conceal your lack of knowledge. The people making the decisions are politicians not economists and they are more concerned with their political careers than anything else. You only have to look at Greece, they would be far better outside the EU, but no politician wants this, so the Greek people have to suffer
I am not a world renowned economist, but I understand enough to recognise the complexity of the global economy. What do you know about common external tarrifs, custom unions and countervailing duties? I'll wait while you consult a dictionary... And you think Greece would be better off outside of the EU? You really are a lunatic. You realise that the Greek crisis was caused by the Greek government sidestepping the EU's debt and deficit regulations? Oh of course not, because if you knew the facts then it would be harder to make these crazy assertions. Their deficit would probably have been a lot worse had they been outside of the EU and had they been outside of the EU, there would have been no one there to prop them up when the house of cards collapsed. The Greeks are angry at the EU because the government has been trying to blame the EU for its austerity program, which of course, the ordinary people are happy to accept because it passes the blame. Those austerity measures are the only thing keeping Greece afloat, and they're not even close to being harsh enough to fix their problems. The Eurozone has just proposed wiping out half of Greece's debt - do you honestly think that would even be getting talked about if Greece wasn't part of the EU and particularly the Euro? There is no country in the union who is benefiting more from EU membership than Greece and no country would have more to lose than Greece by leaving the EU.
Having a population of 600 million is of little good if their spending power is limited because they have little disposable income. Consumers in the UK on average spend more per person than almost anywhere else on the planet. When you're talking about markets in terms of the size of the population. You need to take into account the available disposable income in that market. The UK has that disposable income. Our 60 million punches way above it's weight and is a lot more appealing than you're giving it credit for. If the UK were so inconsequential to Europe we wouldn't hold the power we do today. So in or out. The UK can be a powerful player in EU markets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_trade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom You may note from the second link. We import more from Europe than we export to Europe. Why would Europe want to lose an export customer? The UK is also a founding member of two world banks, the IMF and the World Bank. Lets not forget the UK contributed to the IMF's bailout fund for Europe. We're also founding members of several trade groups. Being a founding member normally gives a nation a power of veto. In short the UK has massive bargaining power well beyond what anybody would expect for a country it's size.
