So let me understand this fully is everybody here saying that we shouldn't have a democracy? because the mob do not have the intelligence to cast a vote ( and how come you don't see yourselves as part of this mob, are you the ELITE?)or that the people in power haver so much more intelligence than ourselves that we should just let them get on with it? So the next time a 100,000 people ask for a referendum on another issue, say the treatment of the NHS, we should just ignore it? and if we go back in history and look at all the examples where people had their democratic rights walked all over. i.e the women's vote, the vote for blacks in Africa etc they should all be ignored?...........and I am the one being accused of being Right wing?? you people are just crazy......do you know the definitionm of conservative ,because that is what you are here are a list of some other people with far right views like myself ( i.e supporters of democracy)........ Ronnie Campbell Labour Blyth Valley Rosie Cooper Labour Lancashire West Jeremy Corbyn Labour Islington North Jon Cruddas Labour Dagenham & Rainham John Cryer Labour Leyton & Wanstead Ian Davidson Labour Glasgow South West Natascha Engel Labour Derbyshire North East Frank Field Labour Birkenhead Roger Godsiff Labour Birmingham Hall Green Kate Hoey Labour Vauxhall Kelvin Hopkins Labour Luton North Steve McCabe Labour Birmingham Selly Oak John McDonnell Labour Hayes & Harlington Austin Mitchell Labour Great Grimsby Dennis Skinner Labour Bolsover Andrew Smith Labour Oxford East Graham Stringer Labour Blackley & Broughton Gisela Stuart Labour Birmingham Edgbaston Mike Wood Labour Batley & Spen Adrian Sanders Liberal Democrat Torbay Caroline Lucas Green Brighton Pavilion
Yeah, you see you don't actually have to be a far-right xenophobe to hold the same views as far right xenophobes. All that has to happen is for you to be deceived by an argument that appears fairly rational, but is in fact a cloak for xenophobic tendencies. Or maybe they have some unconscious bigotry themselves, I don't know and don't care. The point is that withdrawing from Europe would harm the economy and give more power to the far right. Your appeals to authority do not affect either argument.
I'm not getting in to this, but no. The far left don't like the EU for vastly different reasons to the centre and far right.
Quote "Yeah, you see you don't actually have to be a far-right xenophobe to hold the same views as far right xenophobes. All that has to happen is for you to be deceived by an argument that appears fairly rational, but is in fact a cloak for xenophobic tendencies. Or maybe they have some unconscious bigotry themselves, I don't know and don't care. The point is that withdrawing from Europe would harm the economy and give more power to the far right. Your appeals to authority do not affect either argument. " that is not the argument that I am making. I am saying that people have a democratic right to decide on things, and some little twonk like cameron does not have the right to deny us that decision making process, which is what he is doing. Nobody knows what the outcome of a referendum would be , as a note though re Xenophobic.I love different cultures and especially the Chinese one, which I would like to preserve as it is, food,culture ,martial arts the works......that is not Xenophobia, it is something else. anything that threatens the Chinese culture or any other culture I am totally opposed to. Even French culture, sitting under the Eiffel Tower drinking a Bud and eating a bigmac would be worse than hell to me.I love France just the way it is
No, it's not the argument you're making. It's the argument I'm making. Do keep up. One thing we can agree on though- David Cameron is indeed a twonk of a very high order.
Hey it only took 39 posts for someone to call someone a nazi! And Llama, your avatar looks like a cross between a poodle and a llama. It looks REALLY embarrassed.....
*Cracks knuckles* That's not what I said, which you would realise had you read my post properly. What I said was Norway and Switzerland have hundreds of trade agreements and treaties with the EU and with EU members. It is those hundreds of treaties that enable them to function as a part of the global market. The UK/most other EU states don't have that kind of European trade agreement portfolio because the EU negotiate them for us. So, if an EU member leaves the EU, they will find themselves without those very important agreements and treaties and will need to renegotiate them all, which is a) time consuming b) expensive c) likely to end in agreements that are far less smile inducing that the EU ones you just ripped up. And of course during that time consuming process, your economy is being battered as it reels under the shock of all the extra tariffs/charges on export goods you have to pay and on the increasing cost of import goods due to the extra tariffs/charges your suppliers are suddenly having to pay. It has far more to do with their isolationist philosophy. If the EU was a bad thing, the Swiss government wouldn't be constantly trying to push membership through referendums. yes, because the Swiss government have probably been able to calculate how much it costs them every year as a result of not being an EU member. You don't even know was Schengen is, do you, you petulant child? lol, oh my God, ze Nazi's are coming to take me away, and it's all because of the Schengen Visa! Yeah, because the ability to pass between European countries without the need for separate Visas is really comparable to Apartheid. Punch yourself in the face. The kind of stupidity you displayed in that post should not go unrewarded.
oh you sad little man ,lost in your sad little ideologies.....there are many ,. many quotes on how ineffective it is for us to be in the EU.or indeed to bail out the banks, but you choose not to listen "British households pay £440 a year to be an EU member ... but don't get it back The average British household paid £440 to be a member of the European Union last year but received only £312 back in direct benefits, according to newly published Brussels accounts. Bruno Waterfield in Brussels, Telegraph, 28 Sep 2010" and get this Quote Spain is the only one of the top five contributors where the return is greater than the contribution Photo: Corbis The £128 loss for every household is because Britain’s share of the costs for running the EU are not matched by returned cash, which comes in the form of farm subsidies or social funds. source ( http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html.....p.s sorry if this is distasteful to you, as there is democracy in the title and guess where Spain is going? .even with all the subsidies holythanthou ..with all your brave rehtoric we all know what will happen..Greece will fail, italy will fail, spain portugal....Yawn.Ireland....and you still say that we don't need a referendum to get us off this Titanic.......like mandelson lol who said that we would be safer in the Euro..it's not a question of the Euro it is a question of Democratic rights my Nazi friend.We should have the right to decide and like Cameron you belive that we shouldn't ................did you vote Tory ? is this what you want ? will you support him when he imposes unimaginable austerity measures to our country, imposed by the Trioca, as they have been in Greece?
You confuse ideologies with education Those numbers don't account for the extra cost of trade if you leave the EU. You don't think that individuals save more than £128/year in the savings we make on imported goods from the continent? Of course you don't, because you don't think. Everytime you call me a Nazi, you make yourself look like a fool, so please feel free to keep it up.
Why? they can fling insults at me? .and check the thread they started it!!...but....if you are really interested in politics etc look at this [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mccmSXBEpM.this[/ame] from the guy who brought you maastricht and black monday.enjoy
Nope, I'm saying that. Most people don't agree with me, which is fine. And no, I'm part of the mob under our current system. I just believe that a benevolent dictatorship will knock a democracy into a hat any time - all we need is to make ourselves a benevolent dictator. Well, yes. Under a truly democratic system we should ignore the demands of 100 000 people when they are counter to the demands of 100 001. That's how democracy works. You were all for it a little while ago, now suddenly when the system's working (mob rule) you're against it because it's against your views? 100 000 people signing an internet petition is nothing. That's less than 3% of the daily readership of the Daily Mail, let alone the sane population of the country. All of this was, I should point out, happening under a nominally democratic system. Those with the vote tend to vote for policies selfishly, ones which will favour themselves, rather than ones which will benefit everyone - they'll also vote against other people having a share of the power they've got. This is your marvellous democracy in action. Actually I'm not right wing at all. Nor conservative. Best description I can manage would be a radical anti-democratic libertarian with shades of support for technocratic principles. here are a list of some other people with far right views like myself ( i.e supporters of democracy)........ Various appeals to authority.[/QUOTE] Firstly, they exercised that democratic right in the election, and even by signing that pitiful little petition which meant MPs then had to discuss the issue - not necessarily take any action on it. Secondly why exactly do people have a democratic right to decide on things for other people? Yes he does - we elected him, so he has the right to do just that unless he loses the next election. Democracy in action. Aww, that little Chinese culture, so in need of protection and preservation. Maybe we should set up reservations where the traditional Chinese peasants can farm as if they were back in the old days? But let's not allow any mixing or integration of the culture huh? We need to preserve them all exactly as they are - no changes or integration allowed. Again - while not xenophobia this does show a disturbing patronising attitude towards other cultures. Cultures mix, mingle and change - it's definitely not something which should be prevented. In direct benefits - so given the savings in travel, trade, working agreements, increased business, and so on as well I think we can safely say that we get enough back to make up that £128 extra per year. Hell, my tax works out a little more than that every few days. £128 a year isn't gonna bother me any. It is somewhat distasteful. Mainly though it's saddening as I live in Surrey, and that sort of rhetoric is far too common among the right-wing here (most of the population of the area - unsurprisingly a prosperous area with well-off people who are, stunningly, conservative in general). Actually I didn't vote for the conservatives, nor for the liberals - it's your much-treasured democratic system that means they get to speak for me, despite me disagreeing with them and never having voted for them. But that's how democracy works - the thing you want to protect.
It's worrying quite a few of the people posting in this thread thanked you for this post. Which we could assume to mean they don't have a clue either. But they're all for it. I think people should do some light reading to find out exactly what it is they are getting and what it costs. I mean nobody goes and buys a car without at least kicking the tyres first and asking what the non-clocked mileage is right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/TheUKandtheworld/DG_073417 http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgovernment/TheUKandtheworld/DG_073417 http://webarchive.nationalarchives....v.uk/policies/europe/benefits-of-eu-embership http://library.thinkquest.org/19110/english/advantag/index.html http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/EUFactsheet.php http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...urope-ever-done-for-us-apart-from-441138.html The Independent link is quite interesting. It shows just how much has changed since 2007. In it's list it states "3. Once poor countries like Ireland, Greece and Portugal prospering". I'm also not sure how many of the supposed benefits are a direct result of the European Union. I mean do we really need the EU to tell us to clean up our beaches or to create multi-national research programs? Political figures can swindle a lot of money out of Europe. If people in the UK think the expenses scandal that hit our parliament was bad. They best not be around when the European Union expenses scandal hits. Westminster is small change in comparison. Actually they'll probably lead with "Brussels wants Islamic suicide bomber gay gypsies to sell our children to be made into sausage meat". But that's neither here nor there. It's the job of politicians during elections and referendums to campaign for their chosen cause and get the message out to the people. News papers only want to make money. As for the whole in/out question. I'd rather be out. I can understand the benefits of being part of an economic trading block. But I just don't think there are enough benefits to being part of a political union. Unless we're in all the way and we do away with national governments and have a proper federal United States of Europe with a proper democratically elected government. But then again looking at what history has taught us. Big super states are difficult to manage and fail sooner or later. So basically I think the whole European project needs a reboot with a focus on fair trade cooperation and less of the political union nonsense.
Aikiewolf Thanks for a well thought out post....I am old enough to have had a vote on the EU........and I actually voted in favour of it :bang: something that I now regret, people don't have to agree with me, I certainly wouldn't want that, but I always respect a considered opinion
Oh, if we could extricate ourselves from the Political engine whilst keeping all the trade links in tact, we should (and I think, would) do it in a heart beat. Where I disagree with you is that I believe the trading benefits are so massive, that we can't justify walking away because of the silly laws they pass (and a lot of them are quite silly).
Yet all the ones I remember from papers showing how mad Brussels was all turned out to be fake or made no difference to us (banana curviness is classic one) so how terrible for us politically is Europe really? Biggest problem at the minute as far as I can tell is being part of the Euro and thankfully we dodged that bullet.
Apparently yes we do. Here's another one that's being worked on - a single air traffic control network across the entire EU. Now this probably sounds like a simple thing, but if you have any awareness of the administrative overhead that goes into handing over between national air traffic control networks and negotiating flight paths you might think differently. The political union, single set of standards, free trade, free migration and employment in any countries in the union, international arrangements for many other aspects, free travel between all member states, and other aspects? So, you only think we should keep the trade and scrap the rest?
I don't think that list represents the bulk of what the EU does. If all they did was pass regulations to facilitate more efficient trade, then it would be hard to argue against it, but instead they mess with systems that have worked fine for decades and have no significant impact on trade between members or where there is an impact, it is a negative one. Look at the new Cookie law that is due to come into effect next year - that's going to cost businesses a fortune, and for what? Or the new extradition laws that basically mean evidence against the suspect is optional. Imperfectly shaped fruit and vegetables anybody? The EU Fishing laws (incidentally, the main reason Norway hasn't joined the EU) that mean British fishermen have to throw millions of dead fish back into the sea every year - even though the law is supposed to protect fish stocks. Not all European laws are bad, but the ones that are, are shocking.
