referendum on Europe

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by jorvik, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    Just wondered what fellow Brits thought about the referendum. All three party leaders opposed it even though they have all said they would give a referendum at one stage or another. Do we live in a Democracy? or will we see an English "Spring"
    caught this on Russia Today ( one of the best news sites available for giving everyone's opinion)

    [ame=""]'US of Europe total disgrace, collapsing as we speak' - YouTube[/ame]

    I'm over 50 and I didn't vote for what we have now.
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the details of what we get from EU (aside from the fact that my girlfriend gets to live here - which benefits me!). However, I'm also completely convinced that the British public do not have the knowledge or information to make an informed decision on whether we should withdraw from the EU.

    I know the Daily Mail/Express axis of evil is in favour of leaving the EU, which kinda suggests to me that being in the EU is probably a good thing, since the Dailys are generally against good and in favour of evil.

    Also in the EU's favour is the fact that no political figures who actually have access to the full picture of Britain's trade and economics are in favour of leaving the EU. Even David Cameron, who could win major kudos with the tinfoil-hat xenophobes in his party, and therefore make his own life much easier, doesn't want to leave the EU.

    In the end, if we have a referendum, the tabloids will lead with "Brussels wants gay gypsies to sell our children" and they'll have a very easy time manipulating the public into voting against "Johnny Foreigner". This doesn't mean that the public has made a considered, informed decision about what is right for the British economy.
  3. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    Even mainstream Tories think that this is barking mad.
    This is profoundly disingenuous. The whole idea of the 'arab spring' was that it was supposed to bring greater democracy, more liberal values, etc. Whereas eurosceptics are universally in favour of more regressive, less liberal ideas. You are confusing two opposite ends of the political spectrum, god knows how.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I don't like some of the stuff that is getting pushed through the EU, but so long as the benefits outweigh the costs (and they do, massively), we can't leave.
  5. LOL --- to put it politely, I am not so sure about that! :D

  6. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    This is profoundly disingenuous. The whole idea of the 'arab spring' was that it was supposed to bring greater democracy.

    so how does not having a referendum give us greater democracy?. Surely the whole idea of a democracy is to let the people decide and not a handful of politicians, and if we don't have the full facts for an informed opinion, then surely we must be given them? We cetainly were not given them when we entered the EEC as it then was, a trading block,with no federal apirations, and as it has changed considerably since then would it not be wise to be given the chance to reconsider.
    When Ireland voted against adopting the Euro they were given the chance to vote again until they gave the right answer, which led to a huge housing bubble and an economic mess causing the "Celtic Tiger economy" to falter and need bailing out, now maybe they should also be given a chance to re consider
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    It doesn't - but since I wouldn't trust the 'people' to decide which tv programme to watch it doesn't concern me overmuch.

    If these mythical 'people' were well-informed, concerned and engaged with the process it'd be a different matter. Since they have, in general, decided not to engage with the process in the slightest until some trash tabloid decides to wind them up with a bit of cheap propoganda, I'd rather they stayed voiceless.
  8. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    We need greater integration into Europe not a vote to leave, we burned our bridges with the commonwealth when we joined the EU there's no going back now!
  9. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    It doesn't - but since I wouldn't trust the 'people' to decide which tv programme to watch it doesn't concern me overmuch.

    Well why should anyone consider your opinion then?
    BTW over 100,000 people diagree with you
    [ame=""]Cracking EUp: UK MPs want to buck Brussels - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  10. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Over 100,000 out of a population of around 63,000,000. That's 0.15% of the entire population, and about 0.21% of the population eligible to vote (around 45,000,000 registered voters).

    Hardly the will of the people, is it?
  11. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    No it isn't the will of the people, only giving them a referendum would be the will of the people. We have to fight for democracy

    [ame=""]'Europe protests justified, demands in streets key to mankind's future' - YouTube[/ame]
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    That'll be enough out of you Mr. Accurate Number/Percentage Calculations.

  13. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Because I'm smarter than them, and a hell of a lot more charismatic.

    Woop de doo. And? Numbers don't make you right - except in a democracy of course. Awful system.
  14. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Makes democracy sound like Mob Rule! :D

  15. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    I personally see the EU as a good thing for Britain, economically speaking, politically it hasn't influenced much over here other than their human rights act and maybe I'm wrong the minimum wage?

    We opted out of the Euro (good) we haven't signed any European constitution (so we aren't actually obliged to do anything) and we have no European Executive to answer to. (No president of the EU).

    We don't live in an era of direct democracy and nowhere are we guaranteed (in the UK at least) the right to referendums. I understand it works well for Switzerland and other smaller European countries. But there are many issues in the UK to do with refrendums, what to have it on? Everything? Privatizing the NHS, going to war?

    The system which we are currently in we give our trust to our "representatives" in parliament who are supposed to be educated enough to make an informed decision on our behalf. Whether they are competent to do so is another issue. So theoretically speaking we are supposed to let them just get on with it.

    Also (correct me if I'm wrong) it was the last Blair government who promised a referendum on the privatization of the NHS and the EU constitution I believe? So I'm not sure whether the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition are under any obligation to oblige.

    Even though I don't agree with that system, the law of the land states they are allowed to do as they wish, and if we don't like it we elect different representatives who meet our needs.

    So basically, most people don't really care are too apathetic towards these issues but like to complain about it.

    If we wanted to do something about it we would need a lot more than just 100,000 people.

    We as voters should see it as a "privilege" if they give us a referendum.

    The system is just wrong. :p
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Yeah, funny that you should try that game the day after the first Tunisian democratic elections in a generation - hailed by international observers as free and fair.
  17. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I know - it gives the unwashed masses too much of a voice. Benevolent dictatorship under a superior, altruistic AI intellect please.
  18. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    If the British public at large wanted out of Europe, there are political parties who exist for that sole issue. They are free to vote for them. For the rest of us, who are more interested in, I don't know, the economy, national defence and short City breaks in Europe, we'll keep the EU, thank you very much.
  19. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    Although I agree with your sentiments in spirit.

    On the flip side would you want everyone eligible to vote to have the right to vote for everything?

    Defence? Budgets? (Yayyy lower taxes more benefits lets have a vote). Immigration? Capital punishment? Would we as the general public be informed/educated enough to make decisions? The reasons why we have cabinet ministers and elected officials because they supposedly know better than us right? I mean they get paid to be an expert in their relevant fields.

    What would I know about NHS reforms, Top secret WMD's we just aren't privy to the resources and information that our MP's have. Afterall it's what our taxes pay for. :)
  20. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    This is mildly complicated, so bear with me. In the EU, there are various pieces of legislation designed to protect its denizens, most notably human rights laws. Because of the way the EU is put together, each individual state is in effect supervised by all the other members. This year we have already seen many fatuous attacks from the conservative party on this legislation. If we were to leave the EU, the system would cease to operate, and the result could only be more human rights abuses. Therefore the move to leave the EU is not only barking mad, it's deeply illiberal. The people who are against europe tend to be rightwingers, such as UKIP- which is sort of like a version of the BNP for people who can't quite bring themselves to vote for actual fascists. So the move to hold a referendum on our membership in europe is dominated by the far right, and giving them what they want can only give them more power.

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