'Real World' nastiness on the ground

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Shiho-Nage, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    I am asking this here as I am assuming that you BJJ people spend a significantly larger amount of time on the ground than the JJJ people.

    I've been taking JJJ for ~1.5 years and I love it. I did Aikido (Ki Society) for three years over a decade ago. Enough about me.

    In our JJJ class we deal with ground restraints, locks, holds, etc. but it is a relatively small part of our training. We are repeatedly drilled that that you don't go to the ground without a strong plan, good technique and a sound exit strategy. My personal philosophy is that I don't ever want to go to the ground but I realize that what people want and what happens are two very different things.

    So, finally my question. I've done a bit of ground work randori in free practice with a number of people (some of them with BJJ backgrounds). The one thing that I've always noticed is that while there are a variety of very effective holds, locks, submissions there are a lot of very nasty things that can (and, I am sure, do) happen while down there in a serious situation. Things like eye gouging, severe biting, knee/elbow strikes, headbutts, etc. In rolling around free style I find quite a few opportunities to enact one of these severe methods of disabling your opponent but its not something that can be practiced/introduced.

    I guess you could simulate it but then you have a 'cops and robbers' situation.
    (eg. kid1: "I shot you, you're dead!"
    kid2: "No you didn't I was able to dodge it."
    kid1: "Uhn Uh!"

    Do any of you with heavy ground work experience have any thoughts about this? Is it ever addressed in your training? Am I on crack and these opportunities aren't as prevalent as I am led to believe?

    I know that similar things could be applied to standing techniques as well but in my experience there isn't as much time in close contact with standing techniques as there is trying to gain a particular hold on the ground.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2007
  2. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    What exact positions do you think give you the opportuntity to enact dirty tactics? I've rolled with them a few times and while they make a minor difference, they don't change the end reult (i.e. the better grappler wins).

    Anyway, I'm curuious on what precise positions you think dirty fighting will change the dynamic of significantly?
  3. hapkidofighter

    hapkidofighter Valued Member

    BJJ in essence is more about position than submission. You never just try to go for a random submission without securing the dominant position. Therefore, usually you wont be in the position to get gouged in the eye or whatnot. here's a good example


    in this video you see- that going for things like eye gouging actually can work against you. As you can see the karate man was trying to put his fingers in the BJJ mans eyes but all he succeeded in doing was giving his arm up to be armlocked.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's an interesting video. The karate guy broke the grappler's posture a few times. If the karateka had better ground fighting skills, he probably could have swept the grappler.
  5. Covaliufan

    Covaliufan Valued Member

    If we had some ham we could have a ham and cheese sandwich, if we had some cheese.
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You have to agree to what rules you are playing by.

    I end up submitting a lot of folks bigger than me by using finger and wrist locks to set up a submission. The fact is it works because they give me the technique (leave themselves open to it).

    The really good grapplers apply constant pressure, they never give me the opening for me to counter. I end up tied in knots and they usually get my backside before submission. Once they have good position, it becomes a trade off, I might be able to bite them or something like that, but only for a moment before I'm squeezed, choked, or end up with something broken. It won't be able to stop their momentum.
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    lol... but I'm talking about the bread and butter.
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Ya, if I'm better than you then I'll get the position from which I can poke your eyes, vampire bite you -- or, or, elbow your skull, jab-cross combo, take ikkyo, side kick your floating rib, etc etc.

    I'm kinda thinking that whoever is better at that point in time will get the position from which he can do his thing. I can dominate the new guys in my class, but the old guys can still mop the floor with me. :woo:
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think part of the topic about eye goughes and bites comes from certain positions. When applying an arm bar on the ground, the leg is vulnerable to getting bit. There are a few ways around this such as kicking the guy unconscious then arm barring him :p

    Seriously though, more often than not, I could bite the leg during an arm bar. I also could eye gough someone who has top mount on me.

    The reality I have found is that even if I do bite or eye gough, the majority of the time, I can't stop their momentum and I'm going to get submitted.

    It really comes done to some of the basic principles, such as avoid getting in bad positions (the do not get hit principle) and learning how to break someone's posture and what to do from there such as sweeps and such.

    But then again, you can always hope to get that lucky shot in... seen guys shoot in and get knocked out by a knee... etc.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2007
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Is't it a basic rule that you do not grapple a grappler? yet the "karateka" never attempted any strikes (kick to the knee elbow to the skull) he simply ran in and grappled. :confused: As for the versus aikido video that was not aikido that was one of the "ki mystics". :bang:

    regards koyo
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Good point koyo, but I will say that I have experienced the exact same thing as what happened in that video. I was the one on the losing end of a takedown.

    I actually was thinking I was going to hit the opponent, but he came in too fast, too low!!! and took me down. Had I actually been thinking about being a hard to hit target (and sprawling instinctively) rather than focusing on hitting him, I probably could have just stepped out of the way and then pummelled him.
  12. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    He misjudged the distances completely and wasn't thinking straight. He rushed in to close to striking range but the BJJ guy changed level and shot in after a little bit of footwork, the karate guy didn't see it coming because the movement was fast or aggressive, it just put the guy about 4 feet closer than the karate guy thought he would be when he finished his move. The karate guy needs more experience hitting a moving target if you ask me.
  13. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    One example that springs to mind is:

    The BJJ guy was attempting a cross lapel choke while he had my torso wrapped with his legs. Both of my arms/hands were free and able to reach his face. I actually put my thumbs gently below his eyes to demonstrate without saying anything.

    Others have arisen from grappling with other JJJ people. Those opportunities may simply have been a result of neither one of us being especially good at grappling thus providing more openings than would occur against a more experienced and thorough grappler.
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What I have noticed is that the better fighters, and this is not exclusive to grapplers only, are very careful in what techniques they use so as not to leave themselves vulnerable to counter attack.

    I can't really list all the examples, but I would say that if you were up against someone two hundreds pounds bigger than you, would you use all the same techniques you might use against someone one hundred pounds smaller than you? I would say that I might use the same principles, but the techniques would be much more conservative against the person much bigger than me.
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sounds like another good reason for cross training.

    One guy I know (military) Says fight standing up FIGHT ON THE WAY DOWN and fight on the ground. His answer to one take down that I saw was to grab the attacker's head and pull it to the side of his own head as he went down resulting in a LOUD cracking noise.

    His name was Doc he was a medic (just as well) and as mad as a ****house rat!!

    regards koyo

    Bottom line for me is that you STRIKE someone so you can GRAPPLE them and grapple them so you can strike them. You must be capable of both.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2007
  16. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    You where in his guard and extended your hands towards his face? You where grappling with a very very poor BJJ guy if he was choking you and you had time to do this with both hands, extending your arms towards someones face whilst in someones guard for any reason is not a good idea:


    On top of that, the foot on hip stuff shown in the video is one of many ways to mess with the distance between you and the guy in your guard to stop him from even reaching your face when he tries to.
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.


    In that position you want to control his elbows or arms. Reaching past them is like putting your arms into a bear trap.

    regards koyo
  18. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Is it though?
    I mean that as a real question. Okay, against me, you probably could bite me and poke my eyes and so forth, but could you do that against one of the UFC legends? I'm going to bet the answer is "no," and the explanation is "his skill far surpasses mine."

    I thought that too. Then the guy poked my eyes. Doh! Then he arm-barred me! Double doh! :woo:

    Ya, my conclusion has been that playing vampire does not make up for a lack of JJ talent. If the fight has come down to something like that, I'm probably going to lose anyway, so what was the point? (I guess the point was that I still got a piece of him? :eek: )

    Aikido? :eek: :D
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Aikido :eek: :D :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

    Last edited: Jan 23, 2007
  20. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    It would end in armbar tragedy if it was tried not against a UFC legend but a 6-month BJJ white belt.

    Actually, if he went for a double eye gouge from inside guard (as Shiho-nage brought up) that's a split second away from a double armbar! Double doh indeed! :D

    And yeah, mount is considered so advantageous in BJJ for many reasons, primary among them that in a NHB/RL fight you can punch the bottom guy but they can't punch you, and actually, now that it's brought up, they can't effectively eye gouge you (armbar!) but you can eye gouge them all you want! Woo! In fact, the next time someone tries eye gouging me from under mount I'll forego the armbar in favor of eye gouges of my own. Just have to wait for a kung fu or JJJ guy to walk in and I'll be all over that ;)

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