SAS I wish! We did the weapons handling test for the SA-80 in week 3, then it was live rounds from that point onwards. Funnily enough, there were more rules governing the "play" of army exercises than there is in TKD tournament sparring!
Going back to the original gist of the thread... Forearm rotation Forearm rotation is ubiqitious in karate and TKD techniques, not just punches but the so-called blocking movements and so on. The main reason is power generation. You can rotate the forearm in either direction - turning palm-up (ie. the anatomical position) is known as supination, turning palm-down is known as pronation. A quick comparison of techniques shows that supination is almost always combined with flexion (bending) of the elbow, ie. bringing the arm back towards you. Pronation is almost always combined with extension of the elbow. OK, so far that's just a load of fancy words, now for the important bit. The biceps muscle in the upper arm is usually thought of as bending the arm at the elbow. This is true but it also plays a role in forearm supination. There are actually 2 branches to bottom end of the biceps muscle - one involved more in elbow flexion, one involved more in forearm supination. So to get maximal contraction of the bicep you should bend the arm and supinate the forearm at the same time. This way you will recruit the maximum number of fibres in the muscle at the same time. As a result, each action (elbow flexion & forearm supination) is stronger when combined with the other than they would be on their own - they are mutually supportive movements. I believe the same is true of elbow extension & forearm pronation, ie. they are mutually supportive, although I haven't yet been able to identify the exact mechanism responsible. However, a bit of experimentation though shows this is undeniably the case. It may simply be that by pronating while extending you ensure that the bicep isn't working to oppose the elbow extension (supination would certainly oppose extension). To summarise in plain(ish) english... 1. Pushing, extending motions are stronger if you pronate the forearm at the same time (and vice versa). 2. Pulling, contracting motions are stronger if you supinate the forearm at the same time (and vice versa).
^^^ Now that IS a good explanation. I've no idea whether its true as my anatomical knowledge is pretty rubbish, but its good to hear a a claim about power generation that is actually grounded in biology rather than a very dodgy interpretation of Newtonian physics.
Indeed, Newtonian physics is a great tool for understanding the mechanics of the human body. But usually people apply it in too simplistic a way. The shape of the muscles, bones and connective means the system of forces is really quite complex. Also the way in which the nervous system controls the muscles needs to be taken into account (something I glossed over in the above description). Without taking these factors into account you can't properly apply Newtonian laws. Glad to hear it floated your proverbial boat anyway. Mike
Reaction force... I know this has been discussed, with some conclusions, but I thought I'd give the perspective of a (wayward) karateka. I presume we're referring to the act of pulling the hand back to the hip while the hand punches or does whatever, known as hikite (pulling hand) in karate. I can't say I personally buy into the explanation that hikite generates more power for the punch, in and of itself. Experience shows that people who don't use hikite punch pretty hard too, so its clearly not a major benefit. Let us assume for a moment that it does give a bit more power. Isn't that massively outweighed by the huge tactical disadvantage of removing one of your limbs from play, just when you might need to to block or do a follow-up strike? Tactically you've really got to be a bit of a dumbo to want to do that. As has already been discussed, hikite does have a use. I would say only bring your fist back to your hip if you're in some way in connection with the other person: trapping one of their limbs against your body, elbowing someone behind or, most commonly, grabbing them and pulling. So where did the whole 'generating more power myth' come from? I think its from the early days of Japanese Karate, when the meaning of the technique had deliberately been removed from the syllabus but the explanation carried over from the old style karate. Hikite does generate more power - if you're holding on to the other person. It pulls them into the punch/strike and unbalances them at the same time (making them more susceptible to the effects of the strike). Also note the relation between hikite and supination. Supination adds power to the hikite, hence we always pull the hand back palm-up (assuming its gone all the way back to the hip). So the answer's simple. If you're grabbing the person by all means use hikite to pull them into your technique. If you're not holding/controlling them with that arm, don't be daft and pull it back - keep it where it will be of some use. Mike
And finally, sine wave I can't say I've ever been a fan of the bobbing up and down that TKD-ists do - never been convinced about it adding to more power to horizontal techniques. But, as already discussed, human mechanics is complicated stuff, so I'm willing to consider that some of the vertical force gained by dropping may partially translate into horizontal force in some techniques. Karateka, on the other hand, seem to be obsessed with keeping their hips on the same level, even in techniques where there is clearly an intent to drop one's bodyweight into the technique. Particularly in techniques using cross-legged, reverse-cat and straddle (as opposed to horse) there seems to me to be often a clear intent to using the falling bodyweight to add power to what the hands are doing. But many karate styles keep these techniques on the level. Where I do certainly agree with the karate idea of keeping the hips level is when stepping forwards, from one forward stance to another. Quoting one of my own articles: "Clearly there are differing views on this subject, but it’s not just the end-point of the movement that I’m concerned about here. My concern is being stable and being able to apply power not only at the end point, but also while you are stepping. Rather than explore the mechanics of this situation it is easier to carry out a simple test to see which way works best. Have a training partner who is roughly your own weight resist your push while you press on their chest with your lead hand. Now step forwards keeping your arm extended, continually pressing on your partner’s torso. The first time allow, encourage even, your hips to rise and fall as you step. You will find you just bounce off your partner’s chest and lose your balance. Now try again but this time keeping your hips low. You should now have no difficulty stepping through and pushing your partner off balance. " Bringing reaction force, sine wave & forearm rotoation altogether... When stepping forwards with a lunge punch I'm thinking, for example, of pushing the opponent back with what was originally my lead arm (extending the pronated arm), possibly grabbing something juicy whilst doing so, as I step through to force him off-balance. Then pulling him back (supinating) whilst striking with what is now the lead hand. This won't work if you fail to keep your hips low(ish) and push/pull correctly with your arms. But if all you're doing is stepping through to hit the person then all of this is irrelevant, and your technique should be designed simply to deliver maximum force at the moment of impact whilst not making any tactical errors (telegraphing, taking too long, etc.). There is a fundamental difference in the rationale. If you punch (just punch and nothing else) using the basic stepping lunge as found in the Karate and TKD forms then you're using the wrong tool for the job IMO. Mike
Repetition of correct technique done solo will certainly help with speed, whether you do it in the context of a pattern, repeated individual techniques or whatever. Similarly, repetition of correct technique will help drill understanding of mechanical principles into your mind and body. Together with appropriate practice of those principles with a partner (ie. bunkai/application - an essential component of kata practice) this will certainly make your techniques more effective. As for 'stronger' I don't think the primary purpose of kata is to achieve that. That's where resistance training comes in. That said you can combine the 2 to an extent - kata training whilst holding a theraband can be quite challenging, working the deltoids in particular (whilst giving you a good feel for working against resistance). I'm not sure that kata will make your stances stronger, although there are some exceptions - Sanchin kata in Goju-ryu karate works the leg muscles. Similarly Naihanchi kata in Shorin Ryu is designed in part to condition the legs in a specific way. Actually, any of the Shorin kata can be practiced in this manner to a degree but I grant that this method of practice isn't found in mainstream karate or TKD. I'm not convinced that stances used in kata are unrealistic (depending on the kata) or that nobody stands like that. I have pictures of world class judoka standing in good solid karate stances: forward stance to execute tai-otoshi for example, or straddle stance for uke-goshi. The important point is that the stance is fleeting, there for a moment as its needed then gone. This is as it should be in karate & TKD. There's no need to stand and glorify in how good your stance looks. Use it then move on. Well I won't argue with that. There's little if any relation between kata and kind of sparring usually practiced in karate/TKD. The kata movements are ingraining mechanical principles. But you need to do appropriate partner work to be able to apply those principles. Whether it looks like the kata in 'live combat' isn't important - its whether it feels the same and hence whether practice of the kata helps prepare you for combat. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "live combat". MMA type sparring maybe, or actually having a fight? I've never competed in any type of cage fight or whatever, but I've been involved in real life violence without rules, referees etc., and I've certainly used kata principles in that context. And that was when I was a young whippersnapper with little understanding of what the kata were all about. As noted above, done in the right way some kata certainly can condition the body in different ways. So yes, they can build endurance. Other methods (as you mentioned) are good too. One pitfall of running & skipping though (I use a cross-trainer myself) is that you're not practising any martial skills while you're doing them. Sparring, kata, and of course other drills, can work on fitness and skill at the same time. I'm not sure what that is, martial arts should be simple and straightforward rather than esoteric IMO. In summary, obviously I disagree with you on a number of points. But I have a lot of sympathy with your point of view. I think kata/patterns aren't of that much value the way that most people practice them. To be effective self-defence tools they need to be practiced with understanding and as part of a package of related drills. The forms themselves are only one part of the jigsaw and of little value on their own. But in the usual modern approach the 3 aspects of karate (the 3 K's of Karate - Kihon (basics), Kata & Kumite (partnerwork/sparring)) are disparate and relatively unconnected. I'm sorry, I don't know the correct terms in TKD but IME it suffers from a similar problem. I can totally understand why some systems have thrown out kata or made their own, more obviously related to both their basics and sparring methods. Mike
Thanks for those informative posts. i have just got back from a weekend seminar with 7th dan master moore (i have no idea how many there are so someone may of heard of him) he emphasized body weight behind movements going as far as to tell us to "unbalance" our selves. Maybe Sine wave is just another way of putting body weight behind movements moving forward, and they carried onto stationary movements as a sort of standard?
Well I don't think we'll know who he is without a name. Btw, there do seem to be quite a few kicking about (ha ha!) these days. He told you to unbalance yourselves? Seriously?
Unbalancing is pretty much correct as far as i know. Any shifting of body weight must take the form of unbalancing yourself to some degree (Jack Dempsey's falling step being a prime example). The hard bit is unbalancing yourself, hitting while your weight is still in motion and then recovering your balance to carry on fighting.
7th dan master jamie moore, as mentioned above i believe that unbalancing was also a topic from a/the [dunno how many there are] Grand master that had come to australia for a seminar, believe it was general choi's son or something >.< by unbalancing i mean, falling into your movements. easier to do then to explain.
Yes Jamie Moore is a 7th degree master from down under. I also think he hosted an ITF WCs in the last couple of years. Now by falling into your technique or losing your balance doing it, I think they mean that one must always put maximum power into each move that requires it. A good example is the jump to direction C in Yul Guk tul where you must cover a distance, land in a tricky X Stance, while executing a back fist strike. Now this is a fairly difficult move. Most students don't train it enough outside the pattern to do it correctly AND with the maximum power needed to strike & hurt an opponent. So what they do is usually jump & concentrate on landing smoothly in that tricky proper stance, without losing their balance. They then usually only pose the back fist instead of striking with full power. How the technique should be performed is do it all in full power, even if you lose your balance AND then keep doing it till you don't lose your balance & still perform the strike with maximum power, while forming a proper stance & maintaining your balance. Granted, much harder, but if trained correctly most diligent students will eventually develop it & keep their balance. Another example is the bending ready stance type A in the same pattern & that was introduced in the previous pattern Won Hyo. One must bend onto the one standing leg while executing a forearm guarding block, not just place the arms in the ending position. You are not taking or posing for a photo, you are blocking. However many refrain from blocking with power, as they tend to lose their balance as they are bending on 1 leg. Same principle & if done with power from the start, they would eventually develop the balance. Does that help?
