I would argue that one should train only under realistic conditions when training for SD. I liken it to the training I undertook during army basic training - in order to prepare for the realism of combat, every detail of every drill was intensified to as close a point of actual combat as was safely possible. Anything less was a waste of time and even lessened the ability of recruits to respond adequately. Easing beginners into it is fine u but that doesn't (IMO) excuse TKDers who train at less than full intensity, yet claim to be training for SD. This seems to be a common theme with a lot of black belts. I don't buy into the value of patterns for training SD, simply because they aren't designed to be trained at the required intensity for SD.
Ha ha! I'm actually scared to death of bees. And wasps! Whenever doing patterns over the years I've always thought to myself, "Why am I doing these song and dance routines with nobody stood in front of me?" I always understood the concept of shadow boxing singular and combination attacks, but didn't understand why it was necessary to do sequences of rigid moves (still don't!). They just seem so far removed from actual combat, whether that be brawling or sparring, that I fail to see the link between the two (patterns and combat). Ah, perhaps it's just my age... But my main point, I suppose is this: The body adapts to specific demands imposed upon it. Patterns reduce the body's ability to respond appropriately in combat, because patterns are not specific to combat. Patterns do not train SD, because SD is about combat - or avoiding it, which patterns do not teach either. Again, just my opinion
I understand training techniques to prepare you for the eventuality of fighting. And I understand learning situational awareness, threat prevention and verbal diffusion skills, to avoid fighting. But how does practicing patterns train you to avoid fighting? How does practicing rigid techniques in unrealistic sequences train you to fight? Not got round to reading your book yet! Sorry - I used shadow boxing as a generic term. I meant the same practice, but incorporating all techniques. "Shadow kickboxing" or "shadow MMA", then.
Did they use live rounds then.. if not, then it wasnt as close as possible then really, was it! A drill sergant shouting at you isnt as realistic as a bullet.. seeing as thats what will be coming at you in a war zone! Actually, they are much more specific to combat than you are allowing them credit for.. kata/patterns were design specificaly for combat! Now if you see them only as 'song and dance routines' and never take them further than 'nobody stood in front of me'.. they will always seem pointless to you.. simple.. put someone in front of you, learn some decent applications and drill them! that is what they are meant for, no matter how you 'use' to do them in your former club or org! well.. it explains it all in there :woo: Exactly.. sparring trains you to spar.. mostly in a competition type mode.. only fighting trains you to fight.. and fighting is just a part of SD.. the part thats left if its all gone wrong that is! Stuart
Well, it appears that you have completely misinterpreted what patterns are all about. They are not song and dance routines (well, they shouldn't be, but that depends on your club). They are sequences put together that demonstrate specific strategies, principles, and concepts of combat. You learn these, isolate them, and drill them with a partner. When you have a good handle on them, then you either work them into your free sparring or the physical portion of your self defense curriculum. Patterns contain many of the strategies, techniques, and principles that you will be using in self defense, it is up to you to isolate them, drill them, and make them work for you. Trust me, the connection is definitely there, it is just not always taught or focused properly.
SHHHH! The MMA guys might hear you . Seriously though, this is something that so many people miss. It is amazing how many people equate sparring with self defense, or even real fighting, for that matter. Sparring is just another productive drill that imparts critical skills into the overall martial artist, but it is not the be all end all of training. I don't know how to rep on here, so here is a thumbs up .
Yes I realize what you are saying & I agree. If one wants ONLY self defense, then they should train in a combat system that is set up to maximize the efficiency of the training to meet that single goal. However TKD is simply more than that. It has a SD component, that is sadly under emphasized, not utilized in an effective manner & often lacks realism. That is sad. However if the SD aspect is trained under realistic conditions it is or can be a good vehicle if done with the correct emphasis. Sadly this is all to often not the case. But one can not compare original TKD with a combat system that solely concentrates on street SD. Nor can one compare sport TKD. They are all imo different activities.
When it comes to patterns I think both sides of the argument have some degree of truth to them. On the one hand, patterns don't offer the instant training satisfaction that bag training and opposition training do. In my opinion patterns are not a substitute for actual training with an opponent, especially in terms of SD training. HOWEVER, they are a excellent compliment to such training when taken in perspective. I've never been one to believe that patterns hold some great secret technique, I do believe however that they offer one the ability to train they're techniques and delivery of their techniques when a training partner is unavailable, they also offer the ability to do something of a self-check of your techniques that the rush and violence of a training match don't always offer, especially when done infront of a mirror. Another idea I've come to believe is that not all patterns are created equal. Especially in regards to some of the, shall we call them, homegrown, patterns I've seen in some schools they're is often little more here than something intended to impress judges at a competition. However, many patterns from Shotokan and some of the TKD patterns I've studied for example do contain good technique transition training if one pays attention to the details of the pattern rather than simply running through it as a memorization exercise. So to recap, do patterns replace good hard training with a partner? Of course not, but neither should they be dismissed as pointless offhand. Do we always have a training partner on hand to bash around? No, in these cases patterns are a decent alternative to a traditional workout. This is simply my perspective on the matter feel free to criticize at your leisure.
It is amazing how many people equate sparring with self defense, or even real fighting, for that matter. It depends what your sparring is like. If it's bog-standard ITF sparring where you can't clinch, knee, catch kicks, fight on the floor etc etc then I'd agree that it doesn't offer much (IMHO). However once you start to add the other things in it becomes much closer to real fighting. It will never be real (as it lacks the surprise, emotional and contextual elements of a real fight) but it starts to resemble what real fighting is like much more. Too many people dismiss "sparring" as useless for SD because their particular sparring rule set IS useless for SD. Not all types of sparring are created equal and more importantly not all real fights are either. You can find countless real fights on Youtube that look exactly like (very messing and unskilled) MMA. No one tries eye gouging or biting. They square up, start throwing punches and kicks, clinch, fall over and then one pounds the other on the deck until he wins. The last fight I saw recently was two guys punching and clinch fighting across a main road outside a chippy until one fell over, then got up and run away. I doubt either man sustained more injuries than I did at my last grading to be honest. Very simply MMA style sparring roughly replicates how violent encounters "work". It can be improved (such as adding in signifiers for biting, eye-gouging and groin grabs, adding in scenarios and context) but in general terms it is similar to the structure of real fighting in many ways. That leaves us with the role of patterns. As I understand it these days, patterns are intended to serve as a visual syllabus of a style or individuals fighing techniques and principals. I don't think they were ever intended as training devices in their own right. As far as TKD patterns go they are very removed from the source of these fighting principles and so *can* contain techniques that are very hard to relate to real fighting. As such I would approach them with caution.
Actually, no. Sparring is not real fighting or self defense. Sparring is sparring, and it teaches you to spar. Much like the rest of a person's training, it imparts important skills and attributes that contribute to producing an overall better martial artist, but it is still just a single drill. Sparring doesn't address self defense. Self defense involves an unwilling party being suddenly and unexpectedly attacked in a violent manner at an inopportune time, and the goal of self defense is to prevent/avoid the situation, or having failed that, to survive and get the heck out of the situation, not to "win", so to speak. It is not a toe to toe mutual engagement where you square up with a guy and stand there trading shots, a la competition. I think that your viewpoint makes more sense for real fighting. Fighting is a mutual engagement between one or more parties where the goal is to dominate and/or submit the other. Sparring can be a big help here in that it simulates going toe to toe with someone, but as you have said, it still falls short in that it can't replicate the very event and all of the effects associated with it. From my own law enforcement experience working a mean beat in Washington, DC most violent encounters involve drawing a knife or gun and eliminating the target. I doubt that sparring or MMA type competitions resemble this or even come close. The fist fights that I have witnessed involved two guys keeping their distance and launching blows at each other in an attempt to "catch" the other. When one is losing, his/her friends usually enter the fray and "jump" the person who has the edge, or a weapon(s) comes into play. Aside from the first part, this is another reality not addressed in MMA type competitions, and very rarely, if ever, in sparring. There are self defense drills and scenario based training that do a better job of addressing the realities of self defense and real fighting. Now, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against sparring or MMA type competitions. However, I choose to put them in proper perspective and not buy into the hype. I have competed NHB and while it was fun and challenging, it didn't come anywhere close to addressing the realities of self defense or real fighting. In competition, I knew that there were rules and a ref to save me if I got knocked out, and I also knew that if I got knocked out, I would still be going home that night. Subduing drug dealers, maniacs, and murderers was and is a completely different story. It is not a competition or a competitive sport, and it is certainly not a sparring session. Again, no. Patterns contain the strategies, techniques, principles, etc. of the style and were meant to be trained in a way that allows one to drill their contents against a resisting opponent. Now, just doing the patterns over and over again without ever breaking them down, isolating the contents, and working them with a partner isn't going to accomplish anything other than making you look pretty. The patterns contain what you need, but it is up to the teacher and the student to train those things and make them useful. Unfortunately, not everybody does this and as a result, patterns get labelled as unimportant. The techs and principles relate very well to real fighting. They may not translate very well to MMA type competitions (or maybe they do - you never know when TKD's version of Lyoto Machida will come around), but MMA competitions are not real fighting, they are competitions with refs, rules, safety guidelines, and a mutual agreement not to literally kill each other.
Yes, they did. Perhaps, then, my mindset is such because of the way I have been taught? I will admit it has only ever been taught to me as a "song and dance routine" - that I must conform to the pattern, and there seemed to be no understanding that humans move in entirely unique ways. I will look into the subject further (starting with Stu's book might be a start!), but I don't know whether I'm too set in my ways to accept patterns for the reasons you (and Stu) have stated. I fear they will always be song and dance routines to me! This is the idea that I'm having such a hard time accepting. I think when put in [my] perspective, they do not compliment SD (or any worthwhile) training at all. I'm convinced they are detrimental, in fact. But, I'm willing to keep an open mind because the main school of thought appears to be that they do in fact have benefit. At work at the moment so I'll answer further when I get home.
Again I think far too many are mising a vital point, most likely do to terminology or semantics. In the ITF there are 6 types of sparring NOT INCLUDING tournament sparring. We must take out tournament sparring from the equation, as it is a game, a match, a sport, that while it certainly does impart benefits, some of which may be used for SD, it is not SD & not the most eficient way to train SD. The problem is that many schools, including the ITF just fight this way. Some will even go as far to say, well the ITF allows all kinds of hand techniques to the high section, while the WTF only allows a straight punch with the forefist to the middle section or chest protector. This is rubbish. Sport is sport & shouldn't be confused with SD, even though an arguement can be made that it can & does impart some value to the student. So lets get back to ITF sparring. As stated above there are 6 types of sparring, not including tournament sparring. In addition 1 type of sparring has 3 subsets, so it can actually be viewed as having 8 types of sparring. The ITF also has a seperate component of SD. Both its hoosinsul & sparring types contribute nicely to learning real SD skills. However one must understand the different types, when they are taught & why. if the progression is followed they do a great job in teaching SD, but not as good as a pure combat style school that focuses on street SD fighting. However one must realize that ITF or original TKD has stated goals, above & beyond just SD. Therefore by definition TKD can never be as good as a combat school that focuses soley on SD street fighting. So it is an unfair comparison, that is further clouded by the fact that few TKD schools follow the syllabus as outlined by Gen Choi & more importantly trained under his direction & instruction that free sparring one should be free to use all & any available means for attack & efense, in an essentially open combat & that SD must be trained under realistic conditions
Please define sparring? You seem to be talking about tournament rules sport match sparring, are you? If one does the 6 or 8 types of sparring & hoosinsul in the progression that is outlined, very good fighting & SD skills will be developed over time, especially when one puts them all together in free sparring imo
No problem, I was originally taught this way, too. Unfortunately, most schools only teach them this way, so it is certainly not a fault on your part. I used to have this mindset when I started, but as I branched out and began to study on my own, I discovered that there is far more to it than what I was taught. Eventually finding a school that also focused on the deeper meanings of the forms also helped me. I think of it as tapping a valuable resource that most just overlook or treat as being something inconsequential.
Heh, sorry for being so general. PAS mentioned MMA sparring in his post, so I approached it from that angle. I have never thought of the practices within ITF Chang Hon as being sparring, but rather SD drills and a free sparring component (At least, that is how the Chang Hon guys explained it to me). I stand corrected though, as I know that your knowledge of TKD is topnotch :hat:.
Thank you for the kind words. No problem as I know many if not most current up to date registered ITF schools & instructors don't realize this as well. It is most frustrating & becomes even more so when they then try to say their tournament match rules sparring is better for SD than the WTF, due to the aforemention hands/punches factor. Tournaments & competition are great for some, but they are not fighting or SD. It is a shame that many do not train under realisitic conditions, but just emphasize playing a sport & calling it a MA
Okay, so I came up with a list of purported benefits of doing patterns (stuff I've been told over the years). My retorts are in bold: Stronger / faster / more effective techniques (do pad work, sprints & sparring) Stronger stances (unrealistic and too rigid - nobody stands like that) Sparring techniques (sparring trains sparring) Improved SD techniques (the moves are too artificial to be used in "live" combat) Build endurance (do running, skipping or sparring) Awareness of mind and self (read Descartes!) Any "benefits" I missed? Replies to my retorts?
Then I take it you were training for the SAS, as they are the only ones AFAIK who use live rounds throughout all training. I have never heard of basic training in the British Army to use live rounds in "Basic Training"!! Still, I stand corrected! The mind is a terrible thing to waste! Someone else can open the door.. but in the end.. it is you that must walk through! Stuart
