almost all of the moves i have learned incorporate these three uh, things... I was wondering if someone could explain to me in a more scientific way, how they work and create additional power. as my understanding of it, is rather shallow and im sure if i understood the theory more, i would get more power from my techniques. Thanks, Sam
Wondering if you could break down what each of those terms means to you in regards to your punches/kicks/techniques. That might help people to answer your question a bit more in detail.
eh, i thought they were pretty standard terms used accross ITF Do Jangs... aah reaction force you will see, in most hand movements where the other arm is coming back to becide your hip, or up to near the opposite shoulder. Sine wave is to do with movement, mostly seen in legs. so, a sitting/horse stance punch, We're taught to lower a bit, raise and then punch as we lower back to where we started. rotation, in most hand movements, you rotate your hands.
well I'm not in an ITF dojang or any other one for that matter. I thought it may help you as there are people outside of TKD that might be able to provide some input here and maybe even learn something that's all.
Reaction force as explained here does not affect power at all IMO. The larger part of the explanation given in the encyclopedia involves striking as your opponent moves in, adding their movement to your own, like two cars crashing into each other creating a much greater effective impact; this obviously would increase impact. I don't believe sine wave as currently practiced adds any power over what is available from the original, very slight natural up and down movement of anyone stepping. Rotation supposedly creates a corkscrew force that increases power. Not sure I believe this either. Mitch
This is based on Newtons law that every action has an equal and opposite reaction - however, IMO it is wrongly applied in TKD, as the "equal and opposite reaction" takes place in the person/board you hit and is noting to do with the pulling of the hand back to the hip. Though dropping your weight or grounding yourself can add a little, the sine-wave as perfromed these days (ie. down/up/down) doesnt as it scientifically doesnt make sense.. if you want power forward, dropping to far downwards generates power downwards NOT forwards! fast rotation, creates torque and torque creates a whip like motion and thus generates power in things like reverse turning kicks or back piercing kicks... the rotation of the hands (in a punch) are to hit multiple target areas (in close proximity) to find a weak point, and/or to strike through things (hence jirugi meaning pierce/punch etc.) Stuart
Not particularily as though it may help, a good puncher can find his space either way, but the 'theory' does make more sense from a TKD perspective, certaintly moreso than it add speed/power (the usual/standard answer). I do belive that twisting the reaction hand is for securing a good grip however (amongst other things). I think its an off-shoot from karates 'turned' punches.. which make a lot of sense to me - wish they were part of TKD TBH. Stuart
The 'snapping your hand back to your hip' thing never made sense to me, boxers (tend to) punch the hardest out of all martial artists and they don't do it... The sine wave thing always sounded like a lame attempt to make something very natural and unimpressive sound scientific and profound - how many Tae Kwon Do fighters have you ever met with a solid understanding of trigonometry? I can think of one, and he was a mechanical engineer. The rotation just feels like a natural motion to me, try punching without rotating your striking arm - feels like it would seriously limit your options before we even consider any other potential benefits.
Some styles of karate have punches angled about 45 degrees either way (ie. slightly twisted and angled inwards - think the vertical fists in sang sewo jirgui if striking the jaw). Also, the fist (in karate/theory) starts from the hip (as this is seen as a way to lock the shoulders so the impact isnt as absorbant), then it has to spin out anyway - thats probibly why its there and people had just added their own 'theories' to the motion. Its might uncomfortable to hold the fist on the hip palm down btw. Stuart
I guess on the rotation topic, I am a believer. It's like a phonograph where the outside goes faster than the inside. So if you are turning the blocking or stricking tool at or just before impact, it should increase the speed and therefore the power of the motion. Also, with regard to the jirugi thing, I've had it demonstrated on me how the muscle fibers can be broken down or relaxed or whatever by a rubbing motion. When that happens, the underlying tissues is more exposed/sensitive. So if the strike does twist on impact, there's that added vulnerability in the target. My 2 cents!
Yes... as boxers punch from chest/jaw height, their rotation is minimal... karate/TKD puch from the hip (for whatever reason) hence more rotation is needed to get the right position of the fist for a punch. The power thing is wishful thinking I think! Stuart
Nice take on it - though wouldnt the 'faster' bit be rotating the wrong way to add power to a striaght punch? Sort of what I was saying in my earlier post, but Im not convinced or unconvince TBH.. Ive never really looked into it too deeply, so I remain open Good post, Stuart
I think the twist on a straight punch falls into the jirugi aspect, not the speed increase. Punches don't really benefit from twist/speed idea. Which may be why we don't twist on other punches like upset, upwards, vertical. Whoa. I'm actually blushing. :love:
I have to agree I've never seen the point of bringing your punch back to your hip. For several reasons. 1) Bringing a punch back low is a keen way to get KO'd if your opponent follows you back in with a shot. When watching fighters tapes and looking for opponents and such... the first thing I scan for is someone bringing their punch back lower than their chin. It's a very good sign you can follow them back in. 2) Similar to being followed back in is being countered. I've been countered hard enough to rattle my brain by this... get tired in the later rounds... your hands start to drop on punches sent out... and if you're opponent is clever enough he picks up on it and counters you clean right over the top of your punch. You see this all the time in stills of pro boxing matches. This is how KO's happen... this is the classic and sought after 'collision'... that collision of someone chin/face coming forward onto your fist. The snapping of punches coming back... it's a good thing.. if it maintains a good guard and because it can confound an opponent. You snap a shot out and back and he has a harder time to figure out your range. Similar to how knife fighters will keep the knife lose to their body to make their true range deceptive. This can psychologically wear in boxing on your opponent. It's most noticeable when you fight with someone who fights on the outside and is better than you are. I'm not a TKD'er but I'd be curious what is the reasoning for chambering the punch back to the hip. Does it vary from TKD style to TKD style? Coach to coach? Sport TKD versus Traditional TKD? And then some. Reminds me of people giving illustrious and deadly sounding names to techniques.. 'elbow destructions' etc. It's a lot of hype for something that can probably be a whole lot more easily explained. Yes for me there is a natural amount of rotation. It's taught in boxing at some level and by some coaches to work rotation in. Especially when working cuts to get them to bleed more. Or sometimes to use the rotation to open them up in the first place. Less common in pro bouts these days because of vaseline. But quite common in bareknucks I'd imagine.
the punch coming from the hip is more of a fundamental movement then something we would use. Just like most the stances would be pointless if you were in a real situation or sparing.
