but that's exactly the kind of thing I mean, in theory what happens in the Olympics and the big competitions shouldn't effect what is taught in the clubs but it inevitably has a huge influence. what is changed at the top trickles down and effects what is taught at the top and its the regular every day judoka who lose out because they are simply not shown the thing's that have been removed.
The regression of newaza? What exactly do you mean by that? You didn't really ask a question though. Either way, what I said stands true. Or you don't want to admit that you're contradicting yourself. I haven't heard it called that either, but I googled 'BJJ terms' and that was in the first article. And I don't think Americana is English either (in the sense it's used in BJJ), but I could be wrong. Again, cost aside, what is your complaint? Cuong Nhu is taught in the vernacular (with a few exceptions). It makes quite a few things much harder actually. Our training manuals have to be available in four languages, training videos have to be dubbed, and at our international training weekend (called IATC) has to have programs available in each language. And I cann't even imagine trying to translate a string of techniques to a bunch of German, French, and Venezuelan students. Honestly, it would probably be much easier if everything was taught in Vietnamese with English subtitles. Except Newaza is one of those things that should be discouraged though. It is extremely stupid to try to do in a real fight. But, if you want to study a grappling system extremely similar to Judo, but which places emphasis on ground fighting and teaches predominantly in the vernacular, I suggest you learn BJJ.
yep your a moron, "Except Newaza is one of those things that should be discouraged though. It is extremely stupid to try to do in a real fight." that pretty much destroys any creditability you had in this conversation.
It isn't my fault that while you're on the ground trying to break the other guys arm, his buddies are going to have enough time to come up behind you with a baseball bat. What if the point wasn't to prevent McDojoism (which I'm assuming is what you're referring to) but to keep everyone consistent? That's actually the point in Cuong Nhu. Occasionally Grandmaster Quynh will decide that the way we do something needs to be changed, or what not, and the system we have is intended to make sure that everyone is doing the same thing.
Sort of what I was implying I guess but I don't like consistency that regimented I think it stifles the art, I'm a much bigger supporter of allowing people to experiment and digress. Yes there will be people who use that to their advantage and you end up with stupidity from some but it allows the art room to grow with the times such as the growth of no gi grappling in bjj (sorry to keep comparing bjj and judo but bjj is the only art I'm confident enough in to draw comparison). Although I do accept its a risky thing to do and does risk saturating the market with cheap knock offs but thats why you make sure you have a strong grading system and I do think there's a better way of doing that than by as strict centralization. The changes of the rules that i do feel are down to preventing judo from being "weakened" and remaining "exciting" to watch are proof of outdated masters not changing with the times and in the end only damages the art not improve it.
What if while you're holding someone trying to throw them someone comes up behind you with a baseball bat? Please don't go down that route its a stupidly useless one and one that I can use to discredit any art
I've written this big post below, but I think what this thread boils down to is that rocket3 has BJJ envy. He wants so badly to train in BJJ but only Judo is available to him. But there is hope! In Scotland if you are near Glasgow (Black Belt), Edinburgh (Black Belt), Fife (Black Belt) or Aberdeen (Brown Belt) you too can train in BJJ! Anyway... Frodo has made most of the points here that I would have made (thank you), but I have a few to add... I am a nine year Brown Belt who stopped competing in comps/gradings because I was too busy fighting in stickfighting, BJJ and kickboxing. I kept training at the club, I have 'knowledge' of 2nd/3rd dan material and regularly hang with the competitive 1st/2nd Dans in randori. I demand that I be given my 2nd Dan because of how awesome I am rocket3 grow the hell up. Judo is a martial ART, and whilst I am one of the first people to stand up against the Japanophiles who exist in our art, it is exactly that, an ART. And this Blue Belt I have in BJJ, I was expected to know a few techniques (and their names) to get it... No No No! This is wrong! Judo was designed to be a martial art with a safe method of practicing realistic skills. The sports aspect happened when people started to see randori as the be all and an end onto itself. I love sportive side of Judo, but there is so much more to Judo than that. The Kodokan publishes the gokyo and shinmeisho no waza, a list of recognised techniques, the IJF and the governing bodies breakdown those into the national grading requirements as they see fit. So if Randy Couture was to walk into a Judo dojo we should give him which Dan grade? You are missing the point that you are learning an art! As you love to bring BJJ into this let me tell you a few tales. One is that many BJJ BBs keep their students artifically low to bring home the medals, another is that (specifically Carlson Gracie Jr) some will only hand you a belt once you are a (say purple belt) in ALL aspects of your game. I know a few Blue belts who have developed awesome guard games and can use them to hang with brown belts, but they have underdeveloped top games, should they get a purple/brown belt?..... This is more of a quality control issue. In Judo you could become a 4th Dan without ever having to teach or 'give back to the community'. Or you could also be a hopeless coach. Judo is also answerable to the sports governing bodies of their home nationals, therefore some accountablity and tracibility is required. In my experience the coaching courses aren't 'expensive' compared to other sports. Not so much about money grabbing IMHO No, it makes international cross training so much easier. I've been able to train with Poles, French, Italians and Japanese where neither of us could speak much of the others language (my only other language than english, is german, so that wasn't much use!).
Probably underestimating teaching since I've never had to do more than dish out some tid bits to newbies when we roll, but if you've got to a 5th dan black belt in a good grading system surely you know the techniques, especially beginner ones, better than you know your own house so why couldn't you teach with some efficiency?
What am I missing? That's why you throw them quickly. And I left out part of the comment, which should have read as: "It isn't my fault that while you're on the ground trying to break the other guys arm, his buddies are going to have enough time to walk home, get a weapon, and come up behind you with a baseball bat." My bad. Throwing and arm locking take massively different amounts of time.
Theoretically someone could get that high without every teaching or giving anything back to Judo. From 6th Dan onward it's about returning something to the art, so up until that point you could be all 'me me me'. I've met plenty of 2nd and 3rd Dans who had no interest in teaching and were happy to play second string to 1st Dans who were willing to teach. I like the idea of having 'coaching control' in an MA, there are so many good fighters out their who have never stopped to think why things work the way they do, or why their method might not suit another. I'm not ripping on these people, because the art/sport needs them, they show us what works!
pfffft is that an officially recognized medical condition then ? if I was going to take up a second art it probably would be BJJ I enjoy ground fighting if that doesn't sit well with you well to be honest you can kiss my ass. however they could open a BJJ class across the street from my judo club and put it on at the exact same night and time I wouldn't stop going to Judo, I started Judo because there was no BJJ near me to some extent, I continue to do Judo to learn Judo not as a substitute so a bit of an over exaggeration from you about someone you have never met. BJJ was brought into this discussion as a point of comparison for Judo as like it or not its its closest cousin amongst MA, you know discussion the reason were all here to learn from one another just like I now no what you just told me about BJJ but didn't before and am wiser for it, it feels like most of you would be happy to let the level of discussion in the martial art sections stick with in the realms of answering "WHICH MARTIAL ART IS BEST FOR SELF DEFENCE" threads. och get over yourselves, last time I try and inject some life into the judo section
Really? I can get a takedown and a lifting kimura in about 7 seconds on someone without bjj experiance. Not to mention tapping a judo black belt with a rear naked and stuffing green belt throws with instinctive wrestling. Seriously dude don't try that arguement every grappling art has glaring problems in a street fight. In fact while I'm turning this into an art ****ing contest I might as well point out the prominence of bjj in mma compared to the success of judo. Ignoring that, anytime you advocate removing an entire section of an art that focuses on something different you take away from the art and limit its pracititioners skillset. Almost everyone recommends cross training but why do that when you're art has a good ground work basis? Theoretically someone could get that high without every teaching or giving anything back to Judo. From 6th Dan onward it's about returning something to the art, so up until that point you could be all 'me me me'. I've met plenty of 2nd and 3rd Dans who had no interest in teaching and were happy to play second string to 1st Dans who were willing to teach. Fair enough
Maybe where you train is an exception, or where I live is, but I've seen plenty of BJJ and Judo fighters who struggle to get anything done on the ground against someone who has no experience. And I didn't say that Newaza should be removed, just discouraged. The point system in Judo is actually exactly what I'm talking about. Executing a perfect throw should be enough to win a match. Of course, this comes with several things I think should be added, but that's another matter.
That was my best tap and is a massive exception to the rule Just trying to show the idea that bjj takes 5 minutes to do anything is wrong the same as me implying judo throws are ineffective against a noob is wrong. As for new people I can control people in a personal protection class at college relatively easly but actually tapping them yes is hard especially one annoying bloke with stupidly pointy elbows. The club itself isn't a great example, we're less well known I imagine next to the gracie school in the area so mostly attract people who already fight in mma or another art by word of mouth I think/ Obviously as a bjj fighter I'm biased but I don't agree with standing the fight up if you don't land in a sub either; judo is a sport and one thats meant to be effective so learning what to do if you botch a throw is an important thing to learn I think. Its another reason I'm not a huge fan of the pin rule either, far too much emphasis on lay and pray instead of finishing. I was taught it was? To my knowledge if you land on your back thats it.
