Questioning The Grading systems place in Judo

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Gripfighter, Nov 19, 2010.

  1. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    all those argument about judo grading and the very real effect its having on the integrity of the sport can't we just accept the BJJ method can anyone really fault it ? give people who have earned it the authority to award lower belts to people they feel have reached that level, it cuts out gradings for money and lets the sport/MA run its natural course without people getting to interfere with there opinion of what should be taught and what shouldn't and manipulating it to that end by creating a syllabus of moves they approve of that everyone must learn to "progress". as someone who really should be a 5th kyu I can't help but feel frustrated at having to put a belt on every week that doesn't represent my skill level simply because I cant find the time or interest to learn the Japanese names for techniques I can perform perfectly well and haven't yet performed them all in front of someone with a check list but can do them in a Judo match, isn't that ultimately what matters and what the belt system is supposed to be a representation of someone's skill level, isn't running it like an exam system in the first place what led to the creation of the Mcdojo and has kind of made a mockery of the image of being a black belt in a MA. anyone else have any thoughts and opinions on the matter ?
  2. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Firstly, if you would like people to take you and your statements seriously, please implement some form of punctuation.

    Secondly, you say that BJJ has a particular grading system and syllabus. Even in BJJ you still have to know a certain amount of syllabus and number of techniques to generally grade. Just because the name of the techniques are in English or in some cases Portugese, doesn't make it any different. If what you say is correct about BJJ then I would self grade myself due to successes in competition. Now what do you think the response would be to me walking into a BJJ class with any belt other than white, without any significant official training in BJJ? BJJ guys also tend to be the ones who let their skills, rather than the colour of their belt do the talking. Perhaps you should do the same, and worry about the colour least.

    The grade is not just a representation of someone's level of skill. It also represents knowledge, application, attitude, understanding and sometimes time among other things.

    From your post above you may possibly have the application, but you don't have the knowledge, understanding and have far from the correct attitude.

    You really just sound like you're having a whinge along the lines of 'I'm still a white belt, why whyyyy? I deserve better. It's all Judos fault'.

    How long have you been training?
    How often do you train?
    What is your competition record like?
    Do you know the English names of the throws at least?
  3. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    haha bite me, I wasn't trying to winge just trying to start a discussion about the grading system in judo your the one coming in with the attitude :S so in your opinion there are know grounds for debating how transition is made from one belt or another right now and everything is perfect.

    and well some of what your saying makes sense this just sounds like the kind of mystical belt nonsense that has made a mockery of the grading system in many arts, why would ones ability to fight have anything to do with there attitude good or bad ? you or I might not want a thug running around with a judo black belt but if he is good enough and he has done the proper training like it or not he should have one. leave the belt is a path to true discipline and enlightenment for the TMA crowd judo is a sport I doubt the people who introduced the belt system had anything other than showing who knew what about judo in mind.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010
  4. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Rocket3 how do you know you should be a 5th kyu? If you are not prepared to learn the syllabus for grading then you don't deserve the grade. If you don't want to have to learn names and demonstrate techniques then choose another style.

    I've just not bothered attending a grading because I'm not in the mood to learn the names of techniques at the moment. Am I whinging about not getting my next belt? No, I accept that I don't deserve it at the moment because I am not prepared to put the effort in to get it. I enjoy Judo, but am not in it for the belts, so I'll grade next time I have the chance and will do what I need to do to get the grade.

    I think the way the grading is implemented is ok. From what I understand when it was purely based on competition results, people were getting to black belt only knowing a relatively few techniques. At least now, they should be getting a good grounding in a wide range of techniques. I do think it has been a mistake to take all competition out of the lower grades. However by having a syllabus, set requirements for each grade, and only people above certain grades who can assess grading there are still standards that must be achieved before a black belt can be awarded, which is more than many other styles have.

    My main gripe with Judo is not the grading requirements, but the way that more and more techniques are being made illegal and the reduction in the amount of groundwork in competitions.
  5. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    There's not that much syllabus to learn with judoscotland anyway up until about 1st kyu.
  6. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    As much as I hate to be "that guy" I'm going to say it: Judo is much more than throwin' folks on their ****. If you want to advance then just stop whining and put in the effort to learn the whole damn syllabus, it not that hard and a bit of extra knowledge is never a bad thing.
  7. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    <Oh my word!> IM NOT WINGING I didn't make this to be a thread about me I'm perfectly willing to sit down and do what's needed to get my next belt all I was look for was a discussion about the grading system from one perspective. OPINIONS and debate like this.

    not a fight
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2010
  8. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    but my point is isn't the grading system partly responsible or has been used to implement the removal of allot of this stuff. for example if you believe the party line that its ok to still do leg take down's and even leg locks amongst many other things now disappearing or gone from judo down your local club and even during randori just not at the big competitions then how come whatever's removed from the big competitions disappears from grading's.
  9. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Actually many of the most recent 'banned' techniques are still in the grading syllabus, because, theoretically, you can use them as counter attacks.
  10. tkd GU

    tkd GU Valued Member

    Judo, another system that is a perfect example of the effect of sport on martial arts. I would like to thank Judo on behalf of Taekwondo for being there right next to him in that corner of the gymnasium where the art is watered down in the name of competition.
  11. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Hmmmm not sure I understand your comment - Judo was originally (right from the start) designed to be a sport. TKD may well be (more often than not) be taught as a sport but was designed to be a martial art.
  12. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    The simple answer is that it is what it is....

    If the system for grading is do a test showing knowledge as well as ability then that's what you need to do.

    Let me give an example from personal experience (various martial arts - not Judo)...

    1) A club where two students bought premises for an instructor as an inducement for him to come out of retirement and train them (and others) - lesson one, he gave them a black belt and said "Now let's get on with training" - I met them a few years after this event and they were 'black belts'.
    2) A club which ran no gradings for several years and then promoted two students who the instructor deemed ready to Black Belt.
    3) A club that required for each grade up to black belt the student to be able to demonstrate every technique from that grade syllabus plus answer questions covering a wide range of subjects and for black belt write an essay.
    4) A club where the black belt exam was three days of KILLING KILLING KILLING physical activity that only the most mentally and physically tough could hope to pass.

    Which is the right way...

    They all are - if you don't like a grading syllabus or method then don't grade... I have been playing TKD for over a year now and certainly have learnt the syllabus for the first few grades but I have no wish or intention (at this time) of grading simply because I don't want to...

    Am I 'right' - well yes obviously I am because martial arts (should be) about personal responsibility for ones actions.
  13. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    Except until someone gets the brilliant idea to bribe a Sensei into giving them a higher belt then they deserve.

    What if the Kodokan came out with the syllabus?

    And here's why your complaining.

    So, your problem is that you haven't realized you're doing a Japanese Martial Art, which thus has the names of techniques in Japanese? Are you seriously that dense? Also, if you cann't do a handful of techniques for a guy with a checklist, you should probably not be doing a Martial Art with a grading system

    The test system (along with colored belts before Black Belt) was invented by the founder of Judo. The method has changed slightly, but it is still at it's essence the same.

    Is that word even English? Do you mean 'whine'? Either way, your post was full of attitude.

    There's a big difference between debating the grading system, and basically insulting Judo for your own low rank.

    The people who introduced the grading system was the founder of Judo, the Traditional Martial Art (not sport).

    Except for the part where you specifically said that you don't want to learn the Japanese names for the techniques.

    Some of the first Judoka were the Japanese Police Forces. I even think that the Japanese military trains in a variation of Judo. And Master Kano included Kata that had strikes, even though they were illegal in competition because he felt it was important that students learn them.

    Sounds like Cuong Nhu. Ever been to one of our Dojo?
  14. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Sadly No, maybe one day...
  15. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    kind of pointless why would you want one if you can't back it up, maybe in an art without full contact sparring or competition you could bluff that but I can't see anyone lasting long in judo with a fake black belt.

    but they don't the IJF and there subdivisions do

    sept I'm not complaining about anything just observing ill sit down and learn whatever I have to in order to progress it doesn't mean I cant criticise.

    no I was simply stating that if you look at it from a certain perspective that its silly someone dos not have the belt there skill level is at because they don't know the Japanese names for things, no one expect's you to learn Greek to do greco roman wrestling or Brazilian to do BJJ. I didn't say that I shouldn't have to or don't want to learn the Japanese names for the techniques. as for not doing a martial art with a grading system well that wouldn't make sense unless my hole reason for doing the martial art was to get belts which it isn't.

    yes it's a word and so is yours.

    he introduced black belt's for experienced practitioners I don't think he came out with the exact colour belt grading system we have today, if he did then why is it not used in Japan like it is in the rest of the world.

    it was a "for example, im saying that in some ways its silly for people who can fight at the level of a belt don't have it because they haven't passed a test.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  16. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    I'm going to guess the underlined part is in reference to Cuong Nhu, but I'm going to ignore that and take the high ground. Anyways, you made the accusation that the current grading system can be abused, I just pointed out that the proposed reform is equally open to abuse.

    Hypothetically speaking, what if the Kodokan came out with the requirements for each rank?

    That's your opinion. Judo is not taught in the vernacular, and you need to adapt to that, or do something else.

    Actually, several techniques in Greco-Roman Wrestling are in Greek. There is no language called 'Brazilian', but there are techniques which are in Portuguese in Brazilian Ju Justu.

    You really need to learn about the History of Judo.

    I really love how you intentionally cut out the part where you said "because I cant find the time or interest to learn the Japanese names for techniques..." That was in the OP.
  17. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    don't flatter yourself I have no idea what cuong nhu is, sounds like something on the menu down my local Chinese restaurant.
  18. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    ok now we are getting some where worth discussing, first of do you mean if the kodokan under kano had created a syllabus which had been passed down since that time or if the kodokan as it exists today created a syllabus which in some fantasy world was taken up by the judo community over the IJF

    exactly so what is your problem ? this is a public forum the exposer to peoples opinions is agreed to when you sign up

    haha you got me with the Portuguese bit but to say that the use of the traditional language of the country they originated in in those to arts in English speaking country's is anyway near as extensive as the use of Japanese in a judo class is ludicrous.

    haha and I'm the one with attitude ? that was the part I was specifically referring to I made that pretty clear <removed>.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2010
  19. Cuong Nhu

    Cuong Nhu Valued Member

    It's actually the Vietnamese equal to saying Yin-Yang, though the literal translation is 'Hard-Soft'

    The Kodokan today. Especially since it's the real head quarters for Judo.

    What's yours? You complaining that you aren't the rank you should be, because you refuse to learn Japanese.

    Except of course for the techniques which remain being taught in Portuguese. I know plenty of BJJ schools which say Omoplata instead of shoulder lock. And here's one of them. And seriously, check your grammar before your next post. This is hard to read.

    Yah, except you cut it out. You claimed that you have no problem learning Japanese, but you also specifically said that you don't care to learn Japanese. Infact, you turned this whole conversation from one about the grading system in Judo, to basically nothing other you complaining about having to learn Japanese.
  20. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    great story.

    if it was identical to the current one then I don't think my opinion would be changed to much simply because it was being implemented by a more traditional institution, that's not necessarily a good thing. if it was a completely new one then how can I or anyone else possibly comment on it as we can have no idea what it would be like.

    in theory perhaps in practise debatable

    I have stated multiple time's now, to you alone more than once why that is not the reason I started this thread please stop dragging us round in circle's. in all honesty what belt level I'm at (rank really means something else all together and isn't really a good word to describe the grading system) is low down on the list of things I care to do judo for.

    Do you specifically have to refer to that technique by its Portuguese name or learn Portuguese words to gain a belt in BJJ please answer that question ?

    where ? :S your talking out your ****
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010

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