yea you're right in that it may not be the most ideal choice of words.. though what you describe sounds extreme. Though in modern times still we think some things we heard regards kids and gymnastics were harsh in some cases. Basically someone asked Master He the following question - did he think the masters of the past, men like he learnt from knew or thought what they had was 'special' or something of that nature. I mean the likes of you and I can see and feel the quality of someone like Master He. We can recognise it as something above and beyond what we are normally accustomed to. Yet Master He can also say the same regards his own teacher. Maybe it the same with your teacher. From what I know Master He did not begin such training very young like his teacher, he also commented that his teacher wanted to teach him more/ had more to teach him.. but he was like 'no that is enough!'. He used 'play' in the context of things like running up and down an incline quite a lot every day. making it progressively steeper. Or the jumping in and out of pits. It is conceivable that a youngster may see the fun in this ? I think maybe yes. Just like Lots of young gymnasts today put in lots of hard work, but can still derive the fun aspect. Well perhaps you can think that when your li is truly exhausted, this is when you truly can discover your qi.. Do you wish to say that energy is not physical Onyomi.? I'm sorry but I am well aware of your views on qi etc. I respect them totally and I like the way you describe many things. But I think you have a tendancy to overplay the 'unique' aspects.. for my taste. When you talk about refinement I agree with you. But maybe we have a slightly differing conception of exactly what it is that is being refined. Im one of those that leans toward mind and the idea that qi is derived from a confluence of phenomena. There is no fuzzy bolt of electrical 'stuff' flying up my arm when I hit. And I am pretty sure that Master He would not try to tell me that that is what his training would give me. IMA is as much a process of stripping away inner tensions that de-sensitize us from our qi. We would both agree that everyone has qi right. So when you say 'it's just physical training' My eyes roll a bit.. mind and breath do not stop when you move. Different training just has different focuses. Mind and breath is in a true sense as much physical as sprinting or jumping is energetic! You should understand that many differentiation made are tools for us.. Yes i think terrain was a factor. Well this is the physical side we are talking about, the first, foremost and important thing is this foundation. The things you are talking about like ' I can jump higher with qi' etc. fairplay.. I DO think qi gong can enhance and refine performance. But qi gong work is qi gong work. Do you think there is a special qigong set that helps a practitioner understand intimately the relationship gravity has with his movement and or qi and others etc just through some 'special lost exercise or way' ? The internal is a quality of physical.. There is qi work there is meditation or mind work. there is physical work. There is the work of understanding how things relate. All just training and it is to train and train and think less is what Master He would advise! To peel away and see true nature at work underneath. These differing apects of training are not so different in that effort must be exerted.. So tell me what is effort, physical or qi ? Regards
You can find some info in this old thread: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18440
Zendog, you nailed this one. Nice work mate. as an aside. Internal doesnt just refer to Qi IMO. It refers to many things dependant on your perspective. flesh is internal to skin, bone internal to flesh ... etc etc The internal external devide in MY OPINION mainly refers to the introspective nature of the practice. It is not about fighting an external attacker but fighting with your own mind/spirit/body. Of course these arts have a very deep tradition of high quality fighting ... but this stems from complete understanding and mastery of yourself ... your limitations and abilities. So can the training of Ligong to achieve a high level of athletic ability be concidered internal? of course.... it is dependant on perspective. I have trained calysthetic physical stuff before for quite a period. It is markably different to 'IMA' training methods in its depth of focus and complexity. This is where the devide lyes IMO ... the depth at which you look at what is going on inside the body. Even when doing a simple squat, the requirements that derive from IMA training are different to your normal 'gym' type of squat. IMO qigong does enhance physical skill in combat and in health so it WILL have a possitive effect on Jumping and leaping skills. Whether it will transform the qinggong into something extra-ordinary ... i dont think so. We need to look at what these lightness skill people could achive in a country where poverty was common. If you saw a parkour guy running up a wall, and jumping between buildings, but you yourself had never seen anything like that and just lived to keep death away ... it would seem like they could fly or had magical skill ... no? The skills we see modern Parkour guys displaying are very similar to the Qinggong of old IMO. maybe the old generation where better ... we will never know. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSr1pozm6Y"]YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPG9qk870Bk&mode=related&search="]Parekour is cool - YouTube[/ame] happy training! Cheers Chris
Just so you know, self-mastery is what the "external" people are after too. Internal vs. External is a completely arbitrary division. But that's probably a discussion for another time.
I'm still not going to accept that Qing gong was basically just Parkour. It had to do with qigong and Parkour people don't do qigong. I'm sure it has both physical training elements and qi training elements, but I think it would be the qi training elements that would make it different from anybody else who just practiced running and jumping a lot, such as Parkour. Zendog, if you can't feel qi moving in your arms or up your spine, then that just means you have more work to do in the realm of qigong (as we all do). Eventually you'll be able to distinguish qi from blood and other related sensations. I've been thinking about how to describe it and noticed it also has a distinctly "vibrational" quality in addition to the loopy and electrical qualities I've described it as having before. I'm sure my own understanding of it will continue to change with practice. That being said, I'm still adamant that qigong is qigong and physical exercise is physical exercise. Certainly, the two interelate heavily and cannot be seperated 100%, but they are, imo still very much distinct. I can do a qigong "workout" by simply lying flat on a mat. I can also do a grueling cardio or weight lifting workout with little to no value in terms of qi cultivation. It is possible to combine the two to some extent, but I feel they are really two seperate realms of practice. You are very right in that the process of qigong is in many ways a breaking down of tension and resistance. It is almost like letting the qi take you for a ride instead of trying to move it yourself. It's also true everyone has qi in their bodies all the time. However the amount in someone who doesn't practice qigong is too slight for them to notice most of the time, because they've become accustomed to that level. Also, without qigong most people are not able to take advantage of qi to enhance things like jumping or martial ability, nor will they develop that ability without qigong. Sure, they are technically using qi just to remain alive, but that isn't the same. That's why I hate it when people say, "use qi to punch? I already am lol." It's not the same thing. Physical movement is physical movement and internal circulation is internal circulation. They are seperate realms to be trained seperately and used together.
Actually some of the founders probably did exactly that as part of their training - they were major martial arts fans! But, basically I tend to agree that genuine qing gong is not a purely physical training in its original form..... To resolve this debate, why don't we all train the way we think it should be for about 20 years then come back and discuss it again....? :Angel:
Yep - I'm thinkin of adopting it as a general policy whenever I'm on here.... lol Edit: makes a good sig too...
there you go, we agree. Let's not forget we should also train to use them together. Or train using them together you could say. Yes we can feel a great deal and manner of sensation, the mind is truly a wonderful thing. No worries I will contunue working in my fields of power.
he he he ... exactley this is the real point isnt it! none of us really know anything at all ... about anything of real depth! Cheers Chris
man thats a hard question ... R2D2 is an easy one to answer ... but C3PO .... hmmmmmmm meditate on this i will....
trivia time Yep.. In Bens hut in a scene cut from the film, Luke repairs threepio. Then goes to put the bolt back on. C-3PO shies away from the bolt, and Luke decides not to put it back on. He does not wear it for the rest of the film.
Wow... here I am resurrecting this threat after more than a year of dead-ness... Okay, well, Qing Gong... my greatest interest for a few years now, and as such, I have a manual for one method of training. http://www.mediafire.com/?3gvsvxz3mz2 Apparently it was taken from a very vague description of the training that was first mentioned on Wong Kiew Kit's Q&A pages. Also, there's a man by the name of Ge Qiang who wrote a book called Zhonghua Wushu Qing Gong and in it he describes his methods for training to achieve wahat he has. Except he's really has basically just mastered parkour. All of his training was normal physical and strength training that most free-runners end up doing. Okay, well, have at it. I've done the training in the Qing Gong manual I linked to, well, a bit of it. I was only able to train for around 6 months, but hey, my balance increased substantially and my jumping height increased about 10-12 inches. That's gotta be something! ~Azaelius
Errr, I have a question for martial artists practising Qing Gong, or light body skills. I've seen footage of various people standing on eggs or light bulbs as part of their Qing Gong training... Is there any particular method to achieve that/ ways to maximise the foot's contact with the eggs/lightbulbs. It seems to me, the hardest part is always going to be the split second when one foot is on the eggs, and the second one is moving into position. Is there a particular way to deal with this transition? Finally (other than boiled eggs), are some eggs tougher than others (say duck eggs, as opposed to chicken eggs)?
It's my understanding that practitioners move their centre to achieve this....something to try when walking along a wet sandy beach perhaps? Chickens eggs have much thinner shells than duck and goose eggs.
I have heard so many theories about Qinggong. I did read in an article by his daughter that Sun Lu-tang had somewhat possesed this skill. He was able to run straight up a 10-15' wall and he accomplished this by doing a bit of training he learned from a shaolin practitioner. Basically it was just placing a board on the ground and gently raising the incline as he ran up it. After a few years it was a completely vertical plane and he was able to run up it. I have also heard from the aspects of Qigong it is using Yang energy against the earth's natural Yin energy. Thus they are actually "repeling" each other similar to the thoughts of magnetism, thus resulting in somewhat of a levitating effect. This is of course pretty High level Qigong. Then there of course is the physical training that has been described within this thread. I think combining them all would result in pretty good Qing gong, however, it would take many years. After all most of us cannot do the physical requirments of gymnastics over night, nor most of the effects of Qigong. As for the stepping part, you are assuming the the weight on the light bulds or eggs changes during a step. With Tai Chi for example, this is not always the case in stepping, even though your weight might seem to be over one leg, it can still be in fact in both legs. This feat just requires great muscle control and fine muscle control. Also in relation to Qigong with stepping your step and weight distribution would actually "surround" the egg or light buld rather than go "through the center". You ideally would have a larger area of weight distribution over the whole foot rather than a single point of the foot. Similar to the idea of "suction cups" with over the yongquan point of the foot.
