No,if we can exclude grappling systems why would it be "better" developed in any systems which don't purposely train to develop it? That makes no sense. Y'know,as someone who plays this music,I have to say that I find both versions pretty anemic compared to any of the "name" trad or folkrock performers/groups I've heard. Not that I A)am some "purist" who has a problem with those guys doing it (they seemed to be enjoying themselves) nor B) some kind of stodgy fellow.Wanna see my crates of vinyl,including my psychedelic era stuff? They're not re-issues,either. Actually,I think it would help if they played the rhythm with the correct "drive",instead of the standard western art music way. That's probably why I find their versions dull.Their 4/4 time is even.Shouldn't be. Guess the bands were never pressure tested in this idiom. So,you're threatening puppies over who plays a better mediocre version.:cry: I think at best this only rates killing kittens.If that. Any puppies and I'll be forced to beat you about the head and shoulders with my "trad" instruments-they translate well into FMA weaponry usage! Translate better than some musicians who step out of their genre.
Favourite versions of whiskey in the jar ? The pogues with the Dubliners - punk meets trad This west coast tinted version by Jerry Garcia (RIP) whose own music has a lineage running from the music of early Irish immigrants who had a hand in shaping American folk . [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amLungGziP0"]YouTube[/ame]
That seems to be an isolation bordered by an isolation bordered by yet another isolation though. I guess the UK doesn't have an economy of space or something, still, i don't quite see the need for having your eyes closed, and i have to further ponder just how effective it is when the op admits there were people plowing through just as well, i mean, sure if you were smaller it would make sense, but don't security firms typically hire bigger people anyhow?
I'm not trying to defend that exercise in particular, or push hands. And yes, ploughing through people works, but I think both ploughing and "flowing" are good skills to have, and that those skills are useful beyond escaping a mosh pit. I don't see why you have such a problem with exercises that isolate attributes - do you think weight training is a waste of time? Doing exercises with your eyes closed is useful because it further isolates the attributes you are developing, in terms of proprioception and balance. As a simple example, stand on one leg for as long as you can (or as long as you can be bothered, if your balance is good), now do the same with your eyes closed.
I don't really take issue with the concepts of training with your eyes closed nor push hands (although i do think someones time could be better spent), i just can't see any tangible use for practicing the combination of push hands in a mass of bunched up people with your eyes closed beyond a few rather occupation specific examples, hence the comparison to walking on your hands. Also, I've got pretty good balance with my eyes closed, i'll admit though, it took a fair deal of practice.
To my mind, the mass of people is just training generally useful attributes in extremis. They would still apply to dealing with two or three people, or even one person. And balancing with your eyes closed does take practice, because you are learning to balance with different sensory input. Again, I don't see that kind of attribute isolation training as superfluous.
I don't think push hands would be of much use in a three on one attack for very long, i mean, without running away like the clappers asap. Neither do i, but i think that the description as given of this exercise overall is overly complicated when contrasted by it's actually potential usefulness, and is hardly representative of all attribute isolation exercises.
It seems like we're whittling this down to the point where we don't really disagree. I can see the utility in training particular aspects of dealing with unseen attacks or obstacles in isolation, but whether this particular exercise, or push hands, does this effectively, I'm on the fence until I try it or see it in motion. As a a kernel of a training method, I think it has legs, but I wouldn't do it in the same way. Does look like fun though
Training with you eyes closed is very useful imo. Certainly in the context of the krav maga school Ive trained at. The instructors and a lot of students have experience in private security, the military or law enforcement. Trouble with large crowds in badly lit areas are quite common for them. Personally I find it quite comforting to know I can move through a crowd without relying on sight. At the very least I would not panic if the lights went out. As for push hands; its a fun training tool. As long as it not becomes the goal of your entire training I can only see benefits.
Sort of reminds me of the stories i read about jack johnson making money early in his career in "battle royals" of blindfolded boxing, granted, i really don't think that is something for which much insight can be gained beyond a perverse sense of entertainment.
I don't think a couple of months training is much of a basis for drawing your conclusions :dunno: Push hands is a tool for aquiring sensitivity and an understanding of the mechanics of taiji , why would it be a goal in itself ? That would be to be able to use the applications of your style in a practical way against resistance. As seen across various recent threads in this forum , there is a difference of opinion in the role of push hands in getting to this stage . For some it's limited to co-operative drilling and set exercises whilst others , myself included, also train (after going through a gradual process of fixed single hand/double hand , moving single/double step) in a freestyle format against increased pressure. For those who enjoy competing and subjecting what they have learnt to outside scrutiny, it is still just a means of development rather than any meaningful test of fighting ability although from what I've been reading recently I think there are those dogmatists who are disdainful of competitive push hands that think this is a commonly held belief .
Back when I still did krav maga there was a taiji class I sometimes did as a cooldown. So I had a little bit of experience beforehand. And if you cant see usefulness in something after a couple of months than theres something wrong with how you train or the art itself. But that could just be due to my krav maga background. I like to see quick results. The danger of pushhands becoming a goal by itselfs is something my taiji instructor warned me about. Ive heard similar warnings about chisau in wing chun. Its also a bit of a trend in the many messageboard threads I read about both styles.
And who really put me right to :zzz: with that version.(Not to say it's bad). Because it's already a given that grappling systems foster tactile sensitivity. It certainly was a commonly uttered/written belief by many in the West (including instructors) in the 70s and into the 80s (pre-ph comps),right along with " "internal" systems have no sparring". Well,if all one wants to do with their TC is enter ph comps then training exclusively towards that is fine. Just have to keep things in perspective.
No,not for this discussion.I'm just saying those are systems which foster development of tactile sensitivity-hence I'm just leaving them out because.... you said- Any.Any.Any>Since there's no argument that grappling systems foster this,I didn't see any reason to include them.They're a given,so I was focusing on what are predominately striking systems,most of which don't foster a lot of tactile sensitivity,at least not to the extent that a system which purposefully develops it does. However,for some reason you feel that any other system can develop the same level,no,a better level of this. So I said-" It seems you're making an assumption that TC never "tests under pressure". So all other systems will develop this sensitivity better.So I guess,say, Shotokan develops a better tactile sensitivity.Right.Not in my experience of coming up to scratch with 'em.Among others. So,explain why other systems of a predominately striking nature will develop this better than TC training.That training is not limited to just ph,of course. Edit- I see my posts are still at times coming out w/letters,punctuation,etc,missing.I don't get it,& editing doesn't help,either.So instead of "They'reiven" it's supposed to say "They're a given".Let's see if this comes out right.
Well, i'm pretty sure that training in any form of martial art with your eyes closed under pressure would lead to much greater physical and spacial awareness than tc, as was the point of the statement as made to the person it was made too. (context, she is a cruel mistress) Further more, i can't really consider point karate pressure, especially given the farcical notions justifying it as necessary due to the deadliness of the techniques, people need to combat resistance for there to be pressure, not hope like hell they can tap someone desperate to move away with one of their feet before they faceplant.
So that applies to TCC as well when it is trained as a martial art - context much? How many threads discuss competition tai chi push hands. How is that not training tactile sensitivity under pressure? How about you stop trolling TCC for a minute - we get it, you think it's crap and not a martial art and don't think much of push hands training. Some of us disagree and train it as martial art. WHAT !?!? And what's this, some random guy comes along saying something from TCC he found useful in his martial art system. He's a liar!!!!!! this cannot be!! arghhhh the world must end now!!
