Hey, folks. For some background, my first system was a karate system, and I have limited personal experience with the Chinese martial arts, save for a few years of infrequent Wing Chun training. That said, one of my focuses on these systems lately has been form application. Obviously, the Okinawan/Japanese systems are more my wheelhouse, which is why I'm posting a question here In karate forms (kata), it's common to have one hand pulling back to the hip or ribs while the other hand delivers another technique. The former, in Japanese, is called "hikite", or "pulling hand". In many places it's taught as a "chambering" position, readying for another technique and adding some counter-rotation to the non-hikite hand, but some of the forms analysts that I respect the most point out that this can be a terribly impractical motion. Instead, the idea is that the pulling hand is holding on to something- there's a brief explanation on this blog: http://www.karatebyjesse.com/3-wide...of-modern-karate-that-you-need-to-know-today/ I'm wondering if this application, that of pulling the opponent into the strike with a "chambering" motion, is common in the Chinese disciplines. I see some examples of that motion in these videos: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5x9_vDRUds"]Shaolin Long Fist 1 Form with Sifu Romain - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH4hcyhzf_0"]Arrow Hand - YouTube[/ame] I'm mostly curious because karate is supposed to have some roots in the Chinese martial arts. Anyway, I look forward to your responses.
It depends, like most things, in my experience. Sometimes, yes pulling somebody in & through to the strike. Sometimes it's the infamous "hit two at once" story with an elbow to the rear. Mostly it's used to train people in large scale body mechanics for strike delivery or getting something out of the way that doesn't need to be flailing about. Again, my experience & YMMV, as always.
i don't really see any reason for it to be any different to karate's hikite, about which i've previously written the following:
Well I guess I didn't make it clear in the initial post; I'm wondering what gets taught in the CMA's in regards to that motion in forms. It can have any number of applications, but what do the instructors and practitioners actually say about it?
ah, gotcha. iirc my bei shaolin sifu pretty much treated it the same as a karate hikite, but he might have been biased as he was a fan of okinawan karate. the sifu i trained mantis and generic longfist(tm) under never said anything specific regarding it either. my personal opinion is that is started as a shoulder health practice and acquired martial meanings afterwards
I think that it started as an abstract short hand signifier for "grab him/pull him/unbalance him/hurt him" and then became so entrenched in technique people started adding other meanings to it (reaction hand, opposite reaction etc). Especially when techniques are combined in unrealistic sequences where the end point of one technique becomes the start of the next.
I'm with Fish that it's meant as a training aid to help you learn structure and how to "connect" your arms to your torso. I hadn't thought about the physical conditioning aspect of it, but I suspect that plays in too. As for structure, this picture doesn't add a lot to the conversation, but I still love posting it: I'm really not sold on the pulling-someone-off-balance application, because if you're actually able to pull someone off-balance with a hikite, I have to wonder what they're doing fighting in the first place.
Clarification: you can absolutely pull someone off-balance with one hand, but I've never seen it done so that it looks like the hikite you do in Shotokan kihon/kata.
That makes more sense. You won't. Anything grappling done against thin air is going to look different applied against a person. Combine that with the fact that the 'against a person' is a short range jerking movement combined with a short range thrusting or twisting movement and the thin air has been stylised and exaggerated to look aesthetically pleasing, and the differences are going to be startling. As Funakoshi said, "practising a kata is one thing, a real fight is something else."
Exactly. But if the course of action of a hikite is not remotely like the course of action of pulling a real-life human being off balance, hikite shouldn't be thought of as "training to pull someone off-balance" and should probably be thought of simply in terms of body mechanics (connecting the arms) or physical conditioning. It bothers me when people say that X motion from kihon is "training to do such-and-such," and then I ask them to do such-and-such against a resisting opponent and it's a completely different motion than the kihon motion at issue.
I don't want to discuss this in depth as CSF wanted to know what it was taught as in Chinese MA, not 'what it is/can be'. My experience is the opposite of yours, but we may mean something different by 'off balance'. I'm looking to change their angle, adjust their muscle tension, open up targets etc when I'm taking them 'off balance' - I'm not trying to make them on the brink of falling over. I'm hardly pulling them over as they are generally only 5-40cm away from me. For me the course of action is exactly like the empty air version, just shorter as the distances involved are much shorter. The arm will never come back so far as there is a limb in the way as you twist it.
Certainly from a CLF perspective, there's no such thing as an inactive hand as the Karate article says. The assumption is made that if you're punching someone then you're in contact with them. The bulk of Southern Chinese styles are structured to be used from hand-fighting range (which is why Karate is too). Therefore Wu Yiu represents either snatching your hand back from a grab or pulling their arm to open them up for the strike. In CLF the Wu Yiu position is on the short ribs rather than the waist which makes for a straighter/stronger pull. However Wu Yiu is a distant third in CLF forms to Wu Jang (hand at elbow) and Wu Tau (hand high). I some southern systems though I'd suggest that at times the position is simply used to isolate the active hand (such as in the opening section of Fu Hok Seung Ying).
Actually thinking about it, the most common single use for it in CLF forms is to clear with the other hand and retract the hand before punching.
I see the returning hand going to the hip as a complete motion but one that in a 'real' situation you will only use part of... Which part of it you will use and whether it will be a long sweeping pulling motion or a short sharp jerking motion will all depend. So I totally see the point in teaching and practicing it as long as the instructor explains to the students what it's all about... Hmmm, think that's the start of Monday evenings session sorted
I think that's degrees of stylisation. You get that with the Manji Gamae, sometimes within the same kata.
0:24, 0:38, 0:55, 1:18 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEquilGB8jo"]Choy Li Fut - Yee Jong Bot Gwa - Plum Blossom Martial Arts Expo 2003 - YouTube[/ame]
