Punching unconscious

Mai,

you diplomat you. Thanks for the clarfication (both you and Johnny!).

- Matt

 

You could also whack them in the side of the neck (Carotid arterry/brachial plexus). A bit harder to hit, especially if you have gloves on.

 

As a point of fact, the cause of a knock out is not realy so debated among the medical community, though it is an area of ongoing research. I doubt the advertisements were so colorful as Mai Tai's but Neurologists do in fact do quite a bit of study on the cause and effects of being struk into unconciousness.

A knockout is by defeniton unconcisness produced by severe trauma to the head. It's a concussion, and in fact a grade three concussion, the most severe kind. It's important to note however, the concussion does NOT result in bruising to the brain. Brusing of the brain and the attndant swelling generally result in permanent brain damage. In fact radiological scans of those who have suffered unconciousnes due to concussion very rarely show any bruising or swelling.

The actual mechenisim of unconciousness is as follows, though there are several routes that can cause it:

After a concussion, the arteries in the brain constrict. This reduces blood flow to the brain and lowers the rate at which oxygen is delivered to the brain. At the same time the demand rises for the sugar glucose which provides energy to the brain for healing. But the need for more glucose cannot be met by the narrowed arteries and this discrepancy ("mismatch") creates a metabolic crisis.

(quoted from Medterms.com article on brain concussions, a link to which will follow at the end of this post). Basicly, immidiately after the brain experiences severe trauma, it goes into a state where it constircts everything in an effort to save itself from permanent damage. The byproduct of this is unconciousness.

Though the scenarios in which they can arrise are limitless, there are in fact three situations which bring the onset of the above mentioned process. They are:

Impact: The concussion occurs from impact when the head accelerates rapidly and then is stopped, or from spinning when the head is spun rapidly and then is stopped. Impact to the brain can occur when the head slams into a hard surface (NB: or in our case, when a hard surface like a fist slams ino the skull). The skull is stopped by the hard surface but the brain, floating in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), can still move and is shaken.

Spinning: Spinning of the brain can occur when a blow causes the head to snap rapidly. The skull then stops spinning but the brain, floating in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), can still move and is damaged.

Violent trauma: Violent trauma, whether it be from shaking or spinning, causes the brain cells to become depolarized and fire all their neurotransmitters at once in an abrupt cascade, flooding the brain with chemicals --there is a sudden flood of ions (including sodium, potassium, and calcium) -- and deadening receptors in the brain that are associated with learning and memory.

(Excerpted from the American Acadamey of Neurology Practice Paramater on the Management of Concussion in Sports. Link to this resource found at the end of this post). All knockout blows are basicly creating one or more of these three situations.

Ok, with all that dry stuff under our belts, we can answer the question "So what about all those knockout spots on the skull" that get talked about so much. Let me tackle them one by one. First, and probably best known is the point of the chin. This spot has tremendous leverage to snap the head back and creates the impact and/or violent trauma effects mentioned above. This spot is commonly attacked with the uppercut or good old straight lead in boxing, and variations of those in other martial arts. Because the leverage on the point of the chin is greater than any other of the spots to be discussed, boxers wisely go to great lengths to protect it.

The second well known spot is the Template Mandibular Joint (TMJ). This is where your jaw bone meets the rest of your skull, and is usually where hit when someone gets "punched in the jaw" and knocked out. The TMJ again has good leverage over the skull, though not as good as the point of the chin. Typicly hitting the TMJ will create the spinning or violent trauma conditions. Also, if the person being struck isn't wearing a mouth piece, they run the risk of a secondary impact from their jaw suddenly being snapped shut (not to mention some ugly dentist bills). It's usually attacked with either the hook punch or the cross in boxing and variations of those in other fighting styles.

The third spot, also on the lower part of the head is the infamous "rabit punch" spot. You can find it just behind your ear where the corner of your skull meets the soft tissue. Not only does this spot have a very good amount of leverage over the skull, it is also very close to the ceribellum and brain stem. These parts of your brain are responsible for base, autononimous functions of your body such as breathing, circulation, and posture, as well as everything commited to rote motion which includes just about anything that could be used in martial arts such as punching, or even walking. Further, this is a weaker point on the skull and is more likely to fracture than some other points causing even more serious brain damage. No wonder it's illegal in boxing! This spot is somewhat more dificult to attack because of it's location. Typicly when it is hit it's with a hook punch or variation thereof (such as a ridgehand), or the attacker has manuvered themselves to be standing on the side of the defender.

The fourth and last well known "knock out" spot I'll discuss here (though there are more) is the temple. This is the spot just beside the corner of your eye on the upper part of your head. Like the other points the temple has very good leverage to whip the skull around and result in one of the three knockout conditions. What's more, there's a very large number of blood vesles running through it, and it lies very close to the optic nerve. People hit here frequently "see starts" due to the results of the sudden shock to the optic nerve. Bruising and swelling in this area can put pressure on the optic nerve causing temporary or even permanent blindness in the eye near the temple struck. This effect wouldn't be immidate as swelling takes a little time to take effect, so it wouldn't likely have much bearing on a fight, but it's worth mentioning all the same. All in all a great place not to be hit. This spot is hit fairly frequently in boxing as it can be attacked with just about any tool in the box, though the cross and hook are proably the most common. It can produce any and all of the three knockout conditions.

So what's the best way to not be knocked out? Number one, protect as many of these spots as possible by keeping your chin tucked in and maintaining a good gaurd. Tucking the chin not only hides it away, making it harder to hit, it puts the head in a mechanicly advantageous position to recieve blows. The head will have less of a tendancey to spin or whip around from this position, and so less likelyhood of creating one of the three knockout conditions.

Number two, strengthen your neck! If you look at professional boxers, their neck and trapezius muscles are so developed they practicly look like they have no neck. This isn't by accident. The stronger the muscles in the neck the better they can dampen the force of a blow to the head and prevent it from whipping or spinning to create a knockout condition. Oddly the term "glass jaw" is something of a misnomer as the jaw itself isnt' really much involved in the actual process of the konckout.

Also worth noting is once someone has had a concussion, they are about four times more susceptable to them than they were before. What's more, it will take less of a blow to cause the injury or create a knockout, and a longer time to fully heal and recover.

Sorry for the long rambling post, but this question or some form of it comes up fairly often and I thought it was worth the time for a serious answer. Be well.

Links to references:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brain_basics/know_your_brain.htm

http://aan.com/professionals/practice/pdfs/pdf_1995_thru_1998/1997.48.581.pdf

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=13166&page=2

 

Wow.

I'd say that answers it all. Excellent post Sliver!!!

 

Quite often one will hear reference to the "button". That certain knockout point on the jaw. That location is a pressure point known as stomach-5, or S-5. It is pretty easy to locate, on either side of the jaw towards the front where the jaw meets chin. As with most pressure points, striking at a 45 degree angle gives the best results. An elbow will usually find this angle without difficulty. Punching is a little more tricky as this spot is easily defendable.

 

A knckout can also be attained by slapping someone in the ear, as there are many nerves in that region which lead to the central cortex, and a slap will hit most of them.

 

Oh, and what silver said.

 

A dentist told me the easiest way to knock someone out is an uppercut to the jaw as this will put enormous pressure on several blood vessels leading to the brain likely causing a momentary stop of blood flow to the brain.

 

I would debate that with your dentist. Though the uppercut to the jaw can certianly produce a knockout, it isn't due to lack of bloodflow to the brain. Consider the fact that when put in strangle holds by even the best judoka, which cut blood flow off to the brain almost entirely (and certianly more than a punch will) it will still take thrity seconds to a minute for the person in the strangle to loose conciousness. Bloodflow isn't the mechanism at work here, concusion and the response it causes is. Details and links to references are posted above. Be well.

 

Who ever is applying that Strangle hold is crap at it - it usually takes between 5-15 seconds

 

there are people who can survive without oxygen to the head for quite a while. they're called politicians

lol jk. but on topic, a stranglehold will probably work a lot faster than even 15 seconds... the victim has the whole stress factor, is probably already breathing hard prior to any contact... the struggle would only increase the lack of blood flow (is that grammatically correct? )

 

Not sure how quick it would make you go unconscious, but it would be pretty quick.

You see people get choked out with a RNC pretty rapidly, of course the actual type of choke would effect the timing as would the individual.

However 30 seconds would be extremely long for a well executed choke.

Ecks, the stress factor likely does lower the time it takes to reach unconsciousness. Your body burns more oxygen, thus it needs more.

Or at least that is what I think is the case, no doctor here so it is simply opinion.

Sliver- What is the medical explanation for a "glass jaw"?

 

I could answer that question....

 

Fair enough, 30 seconds may be long (and one minute very long) for a well applied strangle. However, throught my BJJ training I've never actually seen anyone go out too much faster than that, though I do have to admit they were actively defending the choke. If someone weren't defending at all, it would probably take effect in around 5-10 seconds as someone else stated. Mea culpa on that one.

Be that all as it may, even 5 seconds is an order of magnitude longer than a punch is going to disrupt blood flow. A knockout from being punched is just caused by a different mechanisim than unconciousness due to strangulation.


The "glass jaw" can actually be caused by a few factors. Some of them were covered in my previous post. For example once you've been knocked out, you're much more prone to it in the future, and it will take less of a blow to cause it. So one way you get a glass jaw is by being knocked out previously. Another reason is weak neck muscles. The neck muscles act basicly as your head's shock absorber and help prevent the three conditions that cause a knockout. A thrid reason could be simply bad head positioning. If you aren't tucking your chin away, you're making it much easier for your opponent to knock you out. Finally there's that wierd, not well understood genetic factor. Some people are just harder to knock out than others for a number of small factors within their phisiology. Someone is geneticly disavantaged because of these factors, probably shouldn't consider a career as a boxer. Would love to hear your take on that one as well Ecks. Be well.

 

Well you pretty much said everything there is to say about a glass jaw, well done

 

I believe that a person can be knocked out without causing "severe trauma to the head".

The skull is designed very nicely to protect the brain from damage, forward headbutts prove this.

You can hit someone straight on the chin and cause a knockout, likewise, you can hit other targets such as the neck, groin, and even the thigh and cause unconsciousness.

It's a nerve thing.

 

well that's the realm of semantics.

 

Nerves

There are a lot of nerve clusters throughout the jaw and chin area. When struck with enough force, the nerves all send messages of PAIN to the brain which can cause a momentary overload (often when you see someone get hit and they stumble around but don't actually get knocked out) or if done just right can cause a full KO.

As for chokes there would be two types of chokes
1) air chokes-when a forearm (or something like it) is pressed against the windpipe to cut off the air. These chokes can take a lot of time to make someone pass out and gives them plenty of room to struggle

2) blood chokes-this is where you put the opponents chin in your elbow and make a V with you bicep on one side of the neck and forearm on the other. When you squeeze your arm together, it cuts off blood flow in the carotid artery on both sides of the neck. If done with the right amount of pressure, this easily puts someone out with 3-9 seconds.

Thanks for your time,

Logan

 

a punch to the jaw hits nerve cluster located around the jaw,added with the brain rattling it causes a KO.

 

Actually, it has nothing to do with a mythical "nerve cluster" in the jaw. Kindly go read post #23 where there's a full explainaition of the effect along with references and links to medical research from recognized experts in the field of neuroscience.

I don't know why I bother writing out these things, people just go on believing any cocamamie nonsense they want anyway.