Pretty neat study

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Taoquan, Apr 10, 2007.

  1. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    Here is a cool study I got in my daily newsletter from Mednet:

    http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=80311

    While they got the whole idea of Tai Chi wrong (Martial arts-like???)
    It is pretty cool that they can do studies like this at least showing it can also help people with health conditions. (not trying to spark any debate, just showing the info :D )
     
  2. fatb0y

    fatb0y Valued Member

    Cool.
     
  3. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'm afraid I can't agree because all exercise improves your immune system. I think "Tai Chi" exercise needs to be tested against swimming, badminton or dance. Another parallel form of exercise might be ceremonial Silat [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr5DrVqkxD4]Amira Silat Pengantin[/ame]

    I'm sure that would be just as beneficial for health, and I personally find it a lot more beautiful to watch than your average Tai Chi form too. For me, Taiji is an efficient fighting system, but I honestly can't really understand the surrounding hype about its unique health benefits or aesthetic qualities.

    Please don't view my views as purposely inflammatory - they're not - I just think a lot of time and energy is put into promoting Taiji for purposes other than its original martial one and I wish it had as many advocates singing the praises of its fighting techniques. All of this other stuff helps perpetuate the mythology that surrounds the art in my opinion, and clouds the public mind as to what kind of discipline Taiji is. I'm sure we don't need another debate about this either - I just wanted to state the opposite perspective for balance. I already know I'm outnumbered millions of times over. Ah well. :)
     
  4. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    thats wikkid :D
     
  5. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    That was beautiful :)
     
  6. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    People keep conflating the health benefits of Qigong with Taiji... they're not the same thing. It's not Taiji that improves your immune system, it's qigong--but you have to practice it quite a while and seriously to actually get any benefit. Otherwise, it really is no better than dancing.

    I don't really place much value on qigong "studies" I've seen so far, cuz I'm not convinced the participants are practicing legit qigong long enough to be getting any benefits that would differ from those of any other form of gentle exercise. 25 weeks of senior-oriented Taiji isn't enough time for them to get any benefits they wouldn't have gotten with other types of exercise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2007
  7. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    For me taijiquan is a martial art. With that out of the way...

    It does improve the range of motion in the joints
    It does improve balance
    It does help you relax
    It does strengthen the legs
    It is low impact (the form)
    It is interesting to learn (meaning that people continue to do it.)

    These are not unique to taiji, but they are benefits and if an elderly lady comes to my class I will not tell her to go away, but allow her to gain those benefits. There may not be an alternative in the area.

    No one can disagree that these benefits are there. It does have a tendency to denegrate the art to calisthenics, but there will still be people that want the martial if we continue to offer it. Teaching elderly people an exercise that has numerous benefits to them is a great thing to do.

    As for the studies? You do need suitable comparisons and control groups.

    Badminton though? I was never as knackered as I was after a game of that. Charging all over the court leaping and twisting?

    Dance? yes. Swimming? yes. Low impact exercise class? yes. As long as there is also something to help with balance control. Most taiji studies tend to focus on fall prevention in the elderly and I don't think that there are many exercise regimes that focus as much on balance as taiji does.

    "Balance" was the only english word that Zheng Man Qing ever said. Pretty important I guess.
     
  8. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi vampyre_rat. I agree to a point - I just don't think non-martial Taiji is very interesting.

    I get everyone applying the art, however elderly. There are many alternative classes all over the place (it doesn't have to be another Tai Chi class anyway, in my opinion), so our classes provide a space where everyone is doing the same thing - practicing fighting techniques. This is because otherwise classes fill with people who want to do gentle exercise and there's no room left for the martial students to throw each other around. Anyway, we just don't do Tai Chi - the gentle exercise.

    I've taught some people with significant disabilities before today too and that's fine - they learn how to defend themselves from their wheelchair. I don't turn people away, but I do get people to come and watch a class or two before deciding whether or not they want to come. We just do Taijiquan, not Taijiquan and qigong.
     
  9. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    I think some are missing somewhat the point of the study. It does say it raises the immune system, but raises it specifically to fight the virus,
    "significantly improves the ability of older adults' immune systems to fight the virus -- varicella zoster "
    It does not say the immune system overall as a miraculous cure all, I would be interested to get a hold of the actual data and see if it does stimulate specific cells within the immune system that targets the virus.

    I know I said, I did not want a debate here, still don't, but I feel if it helps people with their lives, this is what makes it a good art.
    Personally for me, I feel any good exposure of the art of Tai Chi is good for the art overall. Notice here I said good exposure, if Tai Chi can be practiced as a "health" form and help save lives, so be it. If there are others that will also teach it as a MA to also "help save lives" this is great also. I personally don't see what the big idea is, so long as the art is presented correctly, with the proper foundations in place and are not misrepresenting the art.

    We as MA of this art can all agree practicing it as a MA has improved our health, with a proper teacher those that practice for health can also retain the MA aspects. That is my two cents.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2007
  10. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    I think that there is plenty to play with from a non-martial perspective, but you will only get a fraction of what taiji can offer. It turns it into an exercise and meditation.

    If only I could do the same, but there would be just two people in the class, me and my co-instructor! Well maybe one or two others, but not enough to cover the cost of the hall etc. I freely admit that out of a class of a dozen I have only two or three people that are looking at push-hands. If I wanted to take that farther then at least one of those would drop out. Congratulations of being able to teach a purely martial class. I would come along if I am in the area, but at present I can only teach those that come to learn. If I get a bunch that are interested in the martial side then I would add a second night and we can play then. I still wouldn't stop the older students from learning the form.

    But the taiji form can be qigong, so doing the form is doing qigong. We just focus on the form and leave the other exercises out. The form has all you need.


    I don't think we should try to discount how much exercise the form can give. Zheng Man Qing said that if anyone were to do the form properly adhering to ALL the principles, then they would be barely able to complete one round.
     
  11. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    It is true the form can be amazing exercise, especially if you "ba zishi" (stretch the postures"--i.e. stretch each position out further and further, more and more round), use lower stances and go reaaallly slow.

    It's not true that the form is all you need in terms of qigong. It's just not sufficient to gain much ability in qigong unless maybe you do it 4 hours a day for twenty years. There's a whole lot more to qigong than just moving slowly in and out of various postures in time with the breathing (though that's part of it).
     
  12. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Hi folks,
    Just to pick up on this point:

    It has taken us five years of persisting with classes that have made losses to arrive at being able to now teach 4 purely martial classes per week. Our refusal to compromise even 1% has kept the classes martial enough for the more martially inclined to think "I quite like the look of this" or "I didn't know Tai Chi was anything like this!" or "I mean, I'd heard it was a martial art, but I didn't think it was a REAL martial art - I didn't know what to expect, to be honest." Most recently "I've done quite a bit of Tai Chi before but this is loads more fun."

    It has taken a long time. We've had to move our classes around a bit, too, and many have closed due to making too heavy a loss for too long. Even now, our strongest class plus DVD sales and a private lesson per week largely subsidise the whole venture. We are very lucky to be able to do this - I know many people would just have too many other responsibilities. That said though, we also have no social life at all: no alcohol, no eating out, no cinema, no computer games, no holidays, nothing else really apart from walking our dog and reading. We're also really happy. :)

    It remains a labour of love :)
     

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