Jumper53 that was a beautiful thread your thoughts were very well laid out and very helpful to the discussion the rickson example was a good example also. could you give some more examples of how you learn to appy AIKI concepts in Hapkido I'm very interested in Hapkido and I have not had in oppertunity to train in it.
Thank you! Thank you! My teacher almost never directly teaches Aiki concepts (The Korean stylists call it Hapki), he "shows" the concepts and hopes the senior students will learn it for themselves. He just teaches the surface of a technique, bend arm this way, opponent falls down. But he almost never tells you where your foot should be, how your body should touch theirs, the direction and size of the circles. The senior students watch his every subtle movement as he demonstrates the basics. Then when we are teaching junior students and trying to figure out why a movement is not working well for them, we then make a connection as to why it works so well for the Grand Master, and not our student. As we fix the little details in our students, we learn the important aspects of Aiki/Hapki. A couple of times during Black Belt classes he has scolded us for not "seeing" an important detail about our movements. He seems to resent having to teach us these things. I did not know we were learning Aiki until I read some books on Aikido "Hey, this Aiki thing is what GM shows us every day." If you were to grab or attack him, no resistance seems possible, even if you know the move he is going to do. A couple of times he was slowly demonstrating something and some smart *ss tried to resist; Grand Master had time to say "DON'T EVER RESIST ME" before they hit the ground. My take on the some differences between Aikido and Hapkido: In HKD we sometimes take the opponents striking force and accelerate it similar to AKD, but more often we parry the attack and grab it, then use the opponents withdrawing force against him. If we miss the grab because the opponent is too snappy, then we can put together combinations of counter strikes that are almost impossible to block. This is what makes HKD more effective vs. strikers who keep their balance (the way we are taught to strike). But we are probably less efficient at the powerful water principle of AKD. In HKD our circles are smaller and more frequently travel vertically instead of horizontally. This puts the opponent on the ground right at our feet where we could execute the option to strike or break the joint to finish them. A little more aggressive than the AKD defensive concept of tossing them away so they feel useless against you. With 2 seconds training you could learn to apply a throw our way and we could learn your way as fast. Grand Master says you can put the opponent anywhere you want to in the room with a throw; we just choose to put them at our feet. I once saw him from a sitting position do the same wrist lock throw several different directions. One person flew 10 feet to the left; one flew 10 feet to the right. Then he said "Now the HKD way." and the person dropped right in front of him still held in the wrist lock. Then just to highlight the concept a little he made one guy flip right over himself and land back on his feet again. If I am correct in AKD most of your movements are flowing around the opponent. In HKD we think of the opponent moving around us. Quite often we move forward into the space where the opponent is/was. If the opponent pulls back, that is the direction we were going anyway and the technique works. If the opponent resists, our movement off balances him and ends the resistance, the technique works anyway. If the opponent keeps balance and still resists we switch techniques to the direction of the resistance and the new technique works. And one of the best concepts senior students learn is that the direction of our attack is always changing in a circular movement. If you try to move your arm in a strait motion the opponent will apply resistance within a couple of inches and stop the movement. But with a smooth circular movement your arm is always changing direction. By the time the opponent applies resistance to your upward movement your arm is moving forward. By the time they apply resistance to the forward movement you arm is moving down. And by the time they resist the downward movement their arm is broken and they are on the floor. And of course every step we take we control our Tan Jon (The center of our belly, I cannot remember the Japanese Name) All this typing I had better say that I really respect Aikido :love: , love to read about it, and would like to hear more about how you learn the Aiki Principal.
Firstly I echo wat was said about the quality of your post. With regards to the Aikido "defensive concept" The 'purely' defensive aspect of Aikido is in fact an urban myth largely propagated by the philosophical levels of the art. As a series of mechanical actions, Aikido is universal as both a highly offensive and strategically defensive method. What makes it one or the other is entirely the choice of the person applying it. Do we consider Karate to be entirely defensive ? Yet there are styles where their kata all begin with blocks and parrys Aikido technique is a physical mechanical entity that has no label, yes it does carry the philosophical attachments (by and large) but it is the decision of the person utilising that technique which determines its use. As Kiaiki said in another thread a little while ago.. "Harmony does not necessarily mean subservience or equality" And I will add "passiveness" Dave
Well another way we practice moves with are opponet is to set up a certain set of escapes like I'm doing one thing and they roll out so we switch to a diffrent thing and then a diffrent thing and so fourth until we eventually throw them. I agree that most of the time we tend to try and throw the person away from us not at our feet. when someone is pushing we tend to turn and let them flow around us. when someone is pulling we tend to move right threw them ending up right were they were standing. Of course there our exceptions but this is the norm. It's interesting how similar the two arts our, one thing I've got to give you Hapkido guys is you our great at kick defenses. Do you guys train to blend with kicks and use the attackers energy against them also? Or do you simply block them? If you blend with them I would love to learn some Hapkido kick defenses my dojo is lacking in that. Oh yeah we also sometimes do a thing were everyone in class gets in a line and then one person at a time comes at you with whatever attack they wan't and we have to blend with it and throw them. If there's any collision or blocking we get yelled at my teachers like "don't block move with them" another thing I've noticed is that if the person is alot bigger than you your only hope to throw them is to use AIKI because you cannot over power them there's this guy at my dojo thats like 290 and if you get it right he goes flying, if not you just bounce off him. dave humm I totally agree with you, I've actually always been amazed how agressive Aikido is. I constantly find myself being passive and because of this my Aikido won't work it's one of the thing's im working on.
Excellent read folks. Great posts. I find it good that people train hands on and don't just stick to theory. Aikido hands on is not all about AI. It is a balance, where other methods of training may be considered unbalanced because they don't train enough in AI, Aikido is sometimes thought to be unbalanced because it doesn't seem to address resistance or opposing forces. Like Yin and Yang, it isn't one or the other but both that create balance. In Yin there is a bit of Yang, and in Yang there is a bit of Yin. Has anyone made any observations about resistance as it applies to Aiki technique and timing that you care to share? What I have found as a general rule is that when it comes to an Uke that is expanding (pushing, punching, kicking, or reaching out to grab) if you catch them before they are half-way into the attack, you move in (apply force) the opposite direction of the attack (intercept it). If you catch them after the attack is passed the half-way point then you apply force in the same direction as the attack. The guideline works slightly different (almost the opposite) if the motion is pulling or retracting/collapsing so to keep things simple I am only using when the Uke is expanding as the example.
well I've found that as long as you get the punch early enough you can lead it out and turn, but if you wait to long even if there punching is still comin out sometimes it's better just to get started entering before they pull it back. If you know your too late to get the turning version just start enetering because you know there going to be pulling thee punch back so I like to get a head start on them. If it's a fast snappy attack sometimes I will simply deflect it and go straight for a irimi technique because it is so hard to get the timing of snappy attacks on the way out and I know it's going to be be going back in. Rebel wado could so tell me more about what you mean by "intercepting it" I didn't quite understand that part?
Defense to me does not mean passive at all. Often HKD and AKD use the "The best defense is a good offense" idea. But from what I have seen AKD does not practise as many "Finishing" techniques, the throw is the end of the movement. Where in HKD every movement ends with a joint break or strike (or both). Though if an AKD person wanted to get a little meaner, with a snappy addition to a joint lock most of your throws could end up as breaks. Or you could start to throw him one way then switch to another in the air leading to a joint break. AKD could be very mean, just most classes do not practise that way. I am not sure how you feel about him but what Stephen Segal does to opponents in some of his movies is an example of how AKD could get mean. I was thinking one day about how when Grand Master throws you, the landing is very soft, like a feather. I realised that he was controling our movements in the air so we landed perfectly. Then I had a painfull thought. If he could controll you in the air to make you land correctly, he could also controll you in the air to make you land totally wrong. (BOUNCE)
Hapkido Kick Defense Our kick defenses are almost identical to the punch defenses. You just need to be a little better because the limb you are trying to control is stronger. Again if the attacker thrusts their body forward to add power to the kick, it is very easy to accept their movement and use it against them. If they keep their balance by rotating the hips for power instead of thrusting forward (as we are taught) then it is tougher to use their attacking power against them. But, the same as punches, we can then grab the leg and use their retracting power, or counter attack with a strike combination. And we learn a little different at senior level than we do at junior level. At first you are taught to block the kick, then do the technique. But at higher levels the block becomes more like a parry/redirection. You could try to convert some of your punch defenses to kick defenses. Just look at the leg as a big arm. Big toe is the thumb, knee it the elbow... it all looks the same. Almost all pressure points and joint locks are the same.
IB, here is an example of interception: http://www.aikido-world.com/highlights/technical _tips/shomenuchi-ikkyo1-1.htm The technique is Shomenuchi Ikkyo. Notice that the strike is intercepted before it reaches the half-way point and the force is applied in the opposite direction as the Uke. In this case, Uke is turned around and redirected into Ikkyo. By entering deeply just as Uke starts the attack, Tori intercepts the delivery system of Uke. Interception is a key strategy when dealing with quick or speedy attacks such as quick knife slashes or snap kicks/punches at close range. ------- For comparison, this is an example of AI, or blending into technique: http://www.aikido-world.com/highlights/technical _tips/Yokomenuchi-Ikkyo-omote1-Angle1.htm The technique is Yokomenuchi Ikkyo, omote. Notice that the strike is parried but allowed to reach full extension (applying AI) before redirected into Ikkyo. By pulling in the same direction as the strike (AI), Tori unbalances Uke. Applying AI to overextend Uke is a key strategy when dealing with powerful attacks such as knife thrusts or thrust kicks or attacks coming from further range.
Ok I see what you mean we do tthe same thing just use diffrent words thanks for posting the videos that made it very clear.
This is actually an accurate observation however, it is drawn from aikidoists IMHO not performing nage waza correctly (unless their new to the system) Aikido principle requires tori to break uke's posture to such degree that they "have" to make ukemi however, 'nage waza' can be performed simply by uke making ukemi regardless of whether their posture has been taken or not, unfortunately a lot of aikido is studied this way - It is in effect ultra compliant to the point of tori expecting uke to make ukemi all the time. (That aikido is NOT for me) Although you will rarely see an Aikidoist physically 'pick up' uke to throw them, I would much prefer to teach that concept within the principles of Aiki technique, simply because it removes the possibility of tori and uke falling into the farce of "I make a movement and you automatically make ukemi" So, in situations where uke has no alternative but to make ukemi it is often as a result of better technique, this technique does not allow partner to "roll" away from you, indeed the ukemi is very much rotational (normally around hip height) which results in uke landing at the feet of tori; many occasions tori will still have hold of at least one limb in the process. 1) In a situation such as this Joe Shmo public won't be getting up in a hurry 2) *if* the throw didn't execute as expected, Kansetsu waza (Joint locks) can and are applied swiftly Essentially we have no need to 'add' a joint lock on the end of each nage waza, all we need is a protruding limb (arm or leg) and we could, if the need required, add a lock. Dave
INTERNAL BOXING - 'I agree that most of the time we tend to try and throw the person away from us not at our feet.' I hope you don't try to throw anyone any distance at all . Here's why: Many techniques in the style I learned do not 'project' an opponent either, as we wish to control the way they meet the ground - hard and fast, sometimes in a lock and sometimes followed up with atemi, as described for Hapkido. That is the only time WE 'throw' THEM. Even then, as Dave says, balance must be taken. Same in Judo, same in Jujitsu etc.. A projected ukemi is uke's escape from a technique, compliance forced on them in order to avoid injury in training - it is not a 'throw' as I would define one. This is IMHO only a dojo training situation. People on the street do not often react with graceful ukemi and I would certainly not attempt to throw them 'away' as they might well renew the attack. (If someone was skilled enough to use graceful ukemi as his escape from my defence, I doubt that he would be the sort of person to attack me in the first place.) It does come in handy if you fall off stepladders, though!
Jeez quoting myself ! An uke 'rolling away' has not been THROWN or PROJECTED in the sence of 'martial application' Regards
I think we do have alot of throws that throw them away, such an kaiten nage and sumiotoshi. I also believe when doing randori's it's best to project them away, but I also agree that its the uke throwing themself away by rolling. It's not us doing it, if they didn't take ukemi they would fall right at your feet. probally on there head.
I'm afraid I can't see exactly what your saying. Although both Kaiten nage and Sumi O-toshi are kokyu in nature for an uke to "roll" away from these applications, tori MUST be letting go completely to allow them to perform basic mae ukemi. This form of training is ok for students who do not yet know how to perform tobu ukemi (flying) breakfalls however, to be continually releasing uke (IE letting go) is, in my considered opinion strategically downright foolhardy. The development of Aiki technique is directly dependant upon the level of ukemi which can be taken when receiving those techniques, for technique to be martial and ultimately reach a level of effectiveness, tobu ukemi is required. If we train to let our opponent 'go' then that’s EXACTLY what will happen push comes to shove. To discuss the two techniques you mention: Kaiten nage Kaiten isn't actually a throw. The origins of this application were by and large tanto waza, the rotary aspects used were to present tori with the opportunity to penetrate through flanks of the enemies amour, the body using a short blade (Tanto or Wakazashi) The penetration would normally happen just above the hip as one steps through (ala the throw) Additionally this technique could also be used to disable (and kill) one's opponent using a sword which would be drawn across the back of the neck at the point where empty handed technique would finish with a projection The 'throw' is in effect a method by which one can practice the 'tradition' or origin of the application - the reality of which is that the enemy is dead before they are (in a modern context) thrown anywhere. Sumi o-toshi This application is very much kokyu and can be just as easily performed (as they all can) from both irimi and tenkan however, as with my above statement, this technique should be 'claimed' (received) upon contact by tori and executed without letting go, this creates a very short, linear rotational ukemi, and in the instance of the irimi version, almost koshi in application. Letting go of uke whilst their in the process of taking a breakfall on this nature is in fact quite dangerous for uke as you instantly remove the fulcrum by which their rotation is based, (Your contact with them) this WILL result in them falling to the floor with a crunch. Kind regards as always
wow I never thought of that we don't do break-falls from anything but koshi-nage at my dojo. for kaiten we let go and let them do a forward roll, and for sumi-otoshi we let them go and they do a bakwards roll. I believe in this instance the way you train sounds much better.
Really ?? I realise that 'style' specific methods of doing things will be different however, from a safety perspective, doing backward ukemi is somewhat dangerous IMHO. You are falling in a direction you cannot see Your arms and hands - slapping the mat (which might otherwise be used to take the sting out of the fall) are all but ineffective because of the dynamics of the fall its self The major point of contact with the ground as you hit is probably your upper back. Now, I'm not saying that backward ukemi isn't required at some point for some applications however, the safest method of taking a fall to the ground during training is always forward although even variations of this breakfall will happen depending on technique and method of iniciation however, I do not teach 'backward breakfalls' to new students. Indeed the better way to look at backward breakfalls is to turn slightly (always TOWARDS your partner) and perform yoko ukemi (side) although not a full forward breakfall your back and shoulders are not square in relation to the ground and you are able to see part of the mat your about to fall into. In relation to the thread topic, it is almost impossible to positively resist and provide good feedback to tori if, backward breakfalls are being used. The dynamics of turning for a front breakfall mean that uke takes a step forward after their attack... 1) This puts you almost in the right position for the ukemi when a BIG technique is about to be whacked on 2) It is very likely in reality that your opponent will be continually moving forward and taking a step forward requires tori to have better quality movement to ensure they aren't stood in the line of the attack. Kind regards
In 'randori' the situation is unique in that projection may be part of ensuring a flow of continuous attacks. Because Tomiki etc have rules I doublt that a single defence with a 'finish' atemi or pin would gain many points. I've seen the 'sit down and roll back' breakfall too often - always when the sensei is unable to perform or teach ukemi well. Sorry if that's blunt - but if the rest of us have to spend hours and hours learning to fall from different heights and directions, it is pathetic to see classes being told that the 'right' way to fall is roll from your **** along your spine and up to your neck. If ukemi looks suspect at a club - don't train there as everyone will be at risk. Surely the key is to perform the technique as dictated by the attack - speed, direction, etc. - if your technique needs a 'projected' ukemi as the escape, that too follows on. If thrown backwards you had better know how to roll that way and make damn sure your spine and neck are not at risk. What we were taught is something like what you would see if watching a forward rolling breakfall but with the video playing in reverse. As an aside, I don't wholly agree that you need to see where you are going (except as a beginner). Advanced students acting as tori or uke should always have ukemi in mind and be aware of their position on the mat vis a vis walls, other students etc. This is especially vital when using weapons. (Axe to grind? I speak as one whose early Judo career involved being dumped on an old cast iron radiator. A few weeks later the same loon dumped me onto a concrete floor many feet off the mat. He gained a BB by 'winning' competitions this way!)
I was referring to beginners in the respect of knowing where one is about to fall, as one's confidence develops one often 'understands' where one will fall without a great deal of thought on the matter however, within a crowded mat, relying solely on Tori to provide you with the safety of pulling technique if they sense danger is, through my own personal experiences of training with INCONSIDERATE people, just not enough. Sure with one's own friends and dojo students I would go whole-hearted along with what you say but, within a mixed level, mixed association mat that isn't enough for me. I too have been dumped on to others as well as having been thrown into a space that tori could CLEARLY see was about to be occupied by another student. Kind regards
Many of the "combat" versions of projections were designed to twist the spine of Uke or cause Uke to not land right. I know of a few variations of the normal training projections where you over-rotate the Uke as they attempt to breakfall or roll so that they end up landing on their tail bone. A few other variations where they land twisted on the spine or head on Tori's knee, etc. The point being that there are a few schools of thought about this. One school is that the more lethal versions of projections were intended to end fights, no need for ground attack or submission afterwards, where as the nicer versions of these techniques can knock the wind out of someone and set them up for a pin or submission. Either way, often a good fighter (thinking outside Aikido) will not opt for a breakfall but will instead grab on to Tori, attack Tori in the kidney area, or hook Tori with the legs to avoid the projection and instead take Tori to the ground so both Tori and Uke end up on the ground. Judo and Greeco-Roman wrestling, for example, ofter extreme resistance to takedowns/throws/projections. There is another school of thought about projections, I don't call it a modern school, but it does fit a concrete jungle like we have today. That school of thought is to use concept of AI to down an opponent as quickly as possible. No locks or big projections, just get them down quickly so you can get away or draw a weapon (police) e.g. if Uke attacks with a front thrust kick, Tori gets out of the way and turns, pulls on the kicking leg in the same direction as the kick, causing Uke to fall down doing the splits. e.g. Uke attacks with a front snap kick to the stomach, Tori moves a bit away, basically scoops up the kick (this is hard to do, btw) and lifts it straight up in the air, Uke fall backwards to the ground. e.g. Uke thrusts with a knife to the chest, Tori gets out of the way and turns, pulls the knife arm in the same direction as the thrust, causing Uke to lose balance and fall face first.
