INTERNAL BOXING: I guess the 'proof' will only be satisfactory if someone breaks your arm for you! It takes time to find a good dojo - keep looking! 'Pain reaches brain' quicker than a thousand words.
I dont know where your based in england Gyaku, but here is the address of the man i personaly think is the no1 in the whole of the UK He has just returned last year from living nearly ten years next to Saito Sensei, training every day under him morning and night. There are plenty of guys in the uk with many more years but nobody has this level of training with the chief in the uk. If your in london give him a visit, if You have trained under Kanetsuka, then this aikido will seem very very different for you, Im sure Kanetsuka is under chiba sensei who has a very different style to what came out of the Iwama dojo and from the hombu as well. here is the address www.aikidodojolondon.co.uk/ His name is Justin Christou
Keep things simple Man, I thought I wrote that long first post. Seems like something I would do. However, I have long found out that there isn't just one answer to things, but it pays to look at the simple answer and go from there. Differences between Judo and Aikido... Judo: When pushed, pull. When pulled, push. Aikido: When pushed, turn. When pulled, enter. Taking the scenario of an attacker (Uke) that comes in with rapid fire punches, in simple terms... ------- Judo: If Uke charges in with rabid fire punches, Tori shoots in under the punches and lifts Uke up with something like a fireman's carry, then slamming Uke forward, head first. If Uke hesitates and telegraphs an attack, Tori shoots in low and applies a single or double leg takedown (basically tackles Uke). ------- Aikido: If the Uke charges in with rapid fire punches, Tori moves off the line of attack, turning as doing so and slapping Uke in the side or back of the head with a hard enough and good atemi technique as to stun Uke, followed by a technique to down Uke as quickly as possible. If the Uke hesitates and telegraphs an attack, Tori without hesitation steps slightly off the line of potential attack and palm strikes Uke through the chin or face, slowing the speed of the technique down at the end to get more of a push on Uke. Tori takes advantage of Uke's momentary confusion and applies a technique to down Uke as quickly as possible. ------- I'm trying to keep this as simple examples to illustrate that Aikido emphasizes atemi and that is a factor that is not part of the Aiki but part of the Aikido. Aikido is not all AI, but a balance between blending and atemi.
But your response to Gyaku is what you think you would do in that situation, how do you kow that you would get the distancing right? How do you know he wouldnt simply slip the blow or block it, how do you know you will judge correctly the distancing and not simply collide bodies with him? Besides which how can you be so confidnet that you can take a couple of headshots from someone who knows how to throw punches? The reason he can say what he would do with some confidence is because he spars and so knows he can perform the techniques under some pressure against a moving opponent, I totally disagree with you saying that sparring is meaningless, it gives you an idea of just how hard it can be to pull of a technique against a resisting opponent.
Guys can we please get the thread back on track I wanted to discuss AIKI principles, besides whether Aikido works against a jab is brought up in like every single thread. If you would like to discuss that then please start your own don't steal mine. This is trying to be a discussion on AIKI principles and examples of them. besides a jab is the toughest technique to defend against. even boxers get hit with it alot, Aikido has it's ways dealing with it, just like every art. Besides we cannot solve this discussion on the internet so could we please bring the thread back to it's orinal topic I spent alot of time and effort to set up good examples and would appreciate it if this didn't turn into a Aikido vs. Boxing thread. Thanks alot guys.
Fair enough. However, 'adaptation' has been argued as a core principle of Aiki. I am querying the validity of that principle and whether it can be applied under certain conditions. The example I provided is directly applicable to that set of conditions. I chose the jab because its a technique everyone is familiar with - I could choose a range of others. I'm not hijacking the thread or taking it off topic, this is all about Aiki principles, no more and no less. INTERNAL BOXING: If you honestly believe that I'm attempting to hijack the thread then fair enough, just say the word and I'll stop posting to it, without any hard feelings. The example used to sustain the point of view (ie saito sensei punch defense) is flawed. Saito KNEW what techniques was coming up, therefore he was applying a straight technique, he wasn't truly 'adapting'. I used the Kanetsu Sensei (again, I am very respectful of his skill and abilities) example because it shows what happens when the need to rapidly adjust is presented. The Aiki principles seem to fail at this point. That is madness. Let me put it to you this way. As a test of speed a competant karateka should be able to land an uraken on your outstretched hand - before you can remove it. If you think you can apply Ikkyo before that strike lands you've gone some painful learning to do. As karateka who has worked with punches for many years - I can't arbitrarily take random punches out of the air in a consistant manner. What I am interested in knowing is HOW do you adapt? What are you doing differently that allows you to adapt in a superior fashion to other martial arts. What makes Aikido work where others can't?
In my own opinion mate, coming from my background, thats the biggest lot of mince ive ever read. Fair enough, then you must admit then that a competant Aikidoka, should be able to easliy move out of the way of uraken before it makes contact(its called awaze). And yes Ikkyo would be very possible. Can you tell me how i manage it with karate students up here who practice aikido?
If you can't move your hand out of the way, how will you be able to move your body out of the way? Thats what I wanted to know. What are you doing differently to other martial artists? What makes your aikido so much more effective that you can do this?
I'm are not saying Aikido is more effective, I'm just saying it's diffrent some arts meet force with force. We go around the attack it's not better it's just a diffrent way of handling a attack. Both methods work it just depends which one you like. It sounds to me like your saying your method works and ours doesn't.
I'm not saying Aikido doesn't work, or that what I do is better than what you do. I just want to know what you do so differently that enables you to do something that I CAN'T do.
I don't know if i do anything diffrent than you, I'm just saying the focus of are training is with going with them if they pull back we don't fight it we go with them. Aikido is not special there are alot of arts that apply this principle if you do, then that's great. I also don't think i do anything you can't if I can do it so can you and so can your style. I was just stating the diffrences that I have observed between the way jujutsu and Aikido deal with attacks these are just my opinions and could be,and probally are not the whole picture. I believe since I have study judo, jujutsu, Aikido, and Aikijutsu for a few years all at the same time I do have a pretty good Idea about the arts.
You do realise gakyu that there are many completely different syles of Aikido out there, some are so different that they are completely different arts, Which is very wrong because the principles shpuld all be the same , but in some schools they are not. Im not saying my art is the best. I "personally" believe its the closest and least changed style that the founder taught, when he was offically doing aikido (late 30s until his death). Im not sure on your style, but if it was under kanetsuka, then it is a very different style to what the founder was teaching, im not saying its bad, I personally dont like his Aikido, but thats me. i dont think its very good. Some schools foot work is so different to hanmi these points matter when doing techs.
Training for situations other than the 'norm' within aikido as a traditional system. I train for the 'untrained' and trained attacks. Although I principally teach the choreographed 'stylised' basics of Shomen uchi etc, once we have people confident with being in the right place at the right time, the attacks get less and less stylised. My philosophy is; if you only train for one particular form of attack, then that's pretty much all you'll be able to deal with. Exceptions exist but, in the main I find that rule of thumb pretty accurate. One must also always remember what influences the art - Buki The weapon's influance isn't just in the 'use of', its to defend against thus, the particular movements, positionings and applications akin to mainsteam aikido are reflective of muto-dori and jo-tori. Neither of these weapons are readily found in the street. This essentially means the student needs to look at the 'application' in the traditional sence and how that translates in to a modern context. As far as I'm concerned, this is another form of 'variation' to existing waza, and should not IMHO (contrary to some) replace the 'older' methods. Regards
Ok this makes a bit more sense, how do you work with resistance? Do yo gradually increase it? Thanks fro the straight answer Dave, I was getting flammed by everyone else.
Edited I originally wrote and posted a rather long reply to mr. Gyaku, Frankly, I don't see the point anymore, at least I was taught an important lesson......I remembered why I didn't frequent these forums before. Thanks for the reminder.
Another way of looking at 'traditional' aikido is to group it with kendo and Iaido. Both are martial arts yet neither are actually practical unless one has a weapon to hand. I know that this comparrision will probably raise a few eyebrows but if we consider that many people consider Aikido a "Fighting Art" yet they never actually place themselves in situations where they can "fight" using their skills. Ok so Kendo perhaps isn't a prime example because at least they can test against each other but, never the less; its skills based is useless unless a kendoka has a bokken or shinai to hand. It is what it is a weapon based art. Aikido on the other hand will present the student with both weapons application and empty hand techniques however, unless the instructor has experience of 'applied' aikido, their instruction will almost never be 'applied' in nature. I don't have a mojor problem with this provided both the instructor and students are honest about the effectiveness of what they learn. As a Yudansha (when training with fellow Yudansha and senior Mudansha) I expect to have my balence and posture "taken" from me before I will even consider ukemi. Some see that as me being awkward (this attitude generally comes from Aikidoists who rely on Uke to give far more than they should) Dave
Dave: That makes more snense than what I have seen, I only learned Tai Sabaki (Only on my own though) and defences against a wrist grab in a year of studying Aikido and to me that seemed to little to slow, I feel that I should have had something usefull from it by then but there really w3asnt that much I would reckon I could use in a fight. Maybe the 2 schools I studied at where not the same style as what you study and teach.
Ok... Let me explain a couple of things if I may WRIST GRABS 1) A basic method of providing physical contact between two people so that basic mechanical principles of technique can be studied Reason: Aikido is a sword influenced art, swordsman would - by and large draw their sword to use it, Ai-hanmi katate dori comes from an application where you would attempt to STOP that weapon (be it a tanto, wakazashi or katana) being drawn from the belt. Following the seizing of the hand, atemi or some form of muto (sword disarming) might take place (I'm generalising here) In training: Ai hamni katate dori ( one form of wrist grab) is THE most basic method of training and forms the foundation of ALL the other methods of application which should follow suit. It is not and never should be taught as a practical method - because frankly who's likely to grab you by the wrist ? It’s unlikely. 2) Aikido - posture & balance For ANY aikido technique to work it requires two essential factors to be in place (again I generalise) a) Your posture is solid and through your application you remove your partner's ability to stand (loosing balance) Once they've lost balance you can then make either Nage Waza (Throws) or Kansetsu Waza (Joint locks) The wrist grabs allow the teaching of weak spots in people's posture, and this can be facilitated from a huge range of positions and applications, what is constant in all of that vastness is the 'grip' Once a student understands where they can move (and how) to achieve the required loss of posture in their opponent, the wrist grabs can be substituted to something else - Lets say a swing to the head. However; because everyone will "swing to the head" differently the variables involved in a student learning the skills of posture taking is frankly almost impossible, (especially in the early stages of training) Thus; wrist grabs make for a simple and very straight forward way of maintaining contact with another person for the means of teaching principles. 3) What do people expect of Aikido ? I can't fully answer that question because "each to their own" however; in my own dojo I explain from DAY 1 to each new student that "Aikido is NOT self defense" I allow them then to go off and formulate their own opinion, some will stay and some will not... Luckily since I started my new dojo in September last year, I haven't lost a single new student (but there's time) Regards as always
As a Hapkido student I seem to have an opportunity to see all sides of a couple of topics that have been raised in this thread. From the half way point between the striking arts and Aikido, I can see where both sides are coming from. Aikido is less effective vs. a snappy attack. But what the striker may not realize is that Aiki is used by a good student long before contact is made between two opponents. You will find that an Aikido student will have such good movement they will often be the one controlling the range between the two opponents. And since snappy strikes are dependent on range, it may be tough to get one off. A strikers vs. an Aikido student will often find themselves either too close or too far to throw a good balanced shot, and will either end up grabbing the opponent or lunging at them to attack... bad idea against an Aikido Student. From the half way point between Jujitsu and Aikido, I see that both arts get you to the same place in different ways. Basic Jujitsu is more about leverage when the opponent resists, but at the higher levels they are taught how to react to the resistance and change with it instead of applying a lot of pressure. (The same goes for HKD). As an example for every way someone can grab me I was taught several techniques, each moving in a different direction. In the beginning I was taught to pick a technique and make it work. Later I was taught to use the one in the direction the opponent was going, and if they changed direction then I would adapt. In Jujitsu, Aiki is touched on but not highlighted until the student is becoming senior. And in Aikido, Aiki is taught right from day one, but how to handle a stiff opponent is shown later in training. Different teaching style, similar result at mastery. Watch old tapes of Rickson Gracie flowing from Arm Bar, to Shoulder Lock, To Triangle, and then finish the opponent back in Arm Bar. He is certainly using Aiki when he fights. "Flow with the go" as he says. It all comes down to who has the higher skill at their art. If the Boxer is better at staying in range for balanced strikes than the Aikidoist is with their Aiki, then they should win, and vice versa. If an Aikidoist is faster at adapting to your movements than you are to theirs, they should win. NOTE: The discription and examples of Aiki at the top of this thread are about the best I have read. Thanks.
