Practice with resisting opponents! Ok I'm going to try and explain that Aikido does practice with resisting opponents and when most people watch they cant even tell we are. Ok first thing we have to talk about some basic principles of Aikido. 1. Move with your opponent (this is the most important) 2. Never meet force with force (this is second most important) 3. A technique only works when it falls in place (this is the 3rd important thing) The reasons the basics are practiced with out resistence is beacuse Aikido techniques are determind by the attacker not the defender. So if i want to practice a wrist lock I need a uke who attacks a certain way and does not change because if he resists or changes his attack I have to change what I'm doing because we don't force techniques. Let me see if I can give an example of what AIKI is at it's most basic level an order to truly understand it you would have to study aikido or aikijutsu but I'm going to try and explain. lets say a attack is going this direction >>>>>>>>Energy (for my purpose lets consider energy is mass in motion) In most forms of jujutsu if an attack goes this way>>>>and you want it to go that way<<<<<<then you would use supeior leverage to make the technique go the way you want so it would look like this >>>>>>><<<<<<< force on force but your superior leverage makes it work without to much muscle, this is fine and there's nothing wrong with it but Aikido has a diffrent approach. If the Attack is coming this way >>>>>>>>> an Aikido we would use the energy of the attack and add to it like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this would unbalance the person and allow us to throw them. now lets look at an example of someone resisting from both perspectices. jujutsu someone attacks this way >>>>>>>>>>maybe in jujutsu you start the same as aikido by using there motion (bold=defenders energy, not bold=attackers energy) >>>>>>>>>>>>> but then the attacker resists sending his energy the other way. <<<<<<< When most people think of resisting they think of this ok his energy is going this way <<<<but I want him to go this>>>> way so I will use superior leverage to make him go this way>>>>>>the way I want him to go so it might look like this <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>> which would allow your technique to over power the resisting opponent. now an Aikido example someone attacks >>>>>>>>>> in aikido we lead and add to there energy to throw them like this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now in the middle of our technique they resist, or in other words change the direction there attack is moving such as pulling back at the end of a punch now there energy is going this way <<<<<<<<<< now remember the jujutsu guy used leverage to over power him and still get the technique they wanted, well an Aikido the technique we wanted to do just changed because the attacker changed his motion so we start like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he pulls back, resists,tenses up, whatever which in Aikido would look like this <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< notice how we are still moving with the attacker and adding to the attackers energy not over powering him so when watching aikido you see us move with the attacker, then the attacker pulls back so we can't have the technique we were trying for. But in doing so he just gave us a diifrent one but the technique we can do is decided by the attacker in a sense were not throwing the attacker they are throwing themself. anyone who has been on the reciving end of a good Aikido technique will atest to that. so that's why when watching it can apper that we are not resisting but alot of the times we are but it just causes the defender to change techniques so on the outside it does not look like the normal attacker resists we over power them and still get the throw we originally wanted, because we have to change with them. you have to be sensitive to what the attacker is doing and move with them.this is the most important thing we move with them, not against them. ummm don't flame me to bad I really tried to explain it good. anything anyone else can add? this is meant for non Aikido people mostly trying to explain AIKI I did my best. Fire away. P.S. Ok I guess I need to give some examples of throwing yourself. 1.Remember in the charlie brown cartoon the girl is holding the ball and charlie brown runs to try and kick it. But at the last second she pulls it away, and charlie brown falls on his back. She didn't throw him he threw himself. 2.Another example is someone is charging for a door going to knock it down at the last moment you open it and they fly in and run into the wall. Now did the person trying to hit the door throw himself, or did the person opening it throw them. I would say the one running for the door did it to himself. 3.Another one for ya, you and your friend are playing tug-a-war and you let go of the rope and he falls on his butt. Did you throw him? I think not. 4.one more someone is walking backwards and bumps into a bench with the back of their legs and falls over it. Did the bench throw them? no they threw themself over it. That's what we do in Aikido we are the opening door, the girl pulling the foot ball away, the one letting go of the rope, and we are like the bench. we do not throw the attacker the attacker throws themself.
Pretty good point made there mate, exept one very important point, yes its wrong for uke to resist as you would just cjange the tech, but i get the impression you mostly practice kinonagare in your techs, this is the least imporatnt level of training. the most important level is KIHON or Katai or BASIC, THis is where you let uke be in an advantageis postion ,ie you lwt him hav ethe upper hand before doing this, so uke should be practicing ow to grip properly to be able to restarin you, remember the attacks be they strikes or grips must be as effective as the techs. UKe most learn to hold strong all the way through to the end this is the quickest way to learn Aikdio, because you are held strong all the way through any mistakes wil show up. This is how the founder always taught his class in his dojo of Iwama for over 30 years. the next level is gotai or soft which is getting closeer to how you describe it but its still not kinonagre. If you dont practice proper training like the way above your aikido will only work if somebody trys to restrain you or hold you strong. You will just fall apart. This is what i see missing from most of the schools ive seen especcialy up in Scotland. The first level of training is there to develop a strong body especially the hips. Im not talking about somebody holding strong and as you move they change grip of push or pull or what ever, but simply to hold strong all the way through each tech should make you sweat. Totally agree about Aikido being started by uke and not tori , this is what Hanmi is for so you can offer certain parts to be attacked and protect other parts. I dont like the victim menatlity of waiting to be attacked that is wrong for me. These are a few training ways that have been changed by the first Doshu from what his father was teaching in Iwama. It became alot more fluid alot quicker, The founder always said about his last years of aikdio, becuase it was always demonstrated as kinonagare, he said that what he was doing then was direct consequence of 60 years of basic training, Kinonagre is easy when you trul;y understand kihon. I totally agree with your points about moving with uke Omote or ura/ irmi or tenkan. But i would say its is alot more important for your body to learn to move your uke first, this goes back to kihon train, where they hold very strong and you have to lern to use your hips and whole beiong to affect your uke s balance. Its no good if your only basic training involves uke holding lighthly and they blend with your movement, without being moved by YOU. You will develop nothing there execpt a nice game between 2 people. Totally disagree here mate, You MUST LEARN to phyiscally throw your uke, they must learn to be thrown, I hate going along to a school and straight away the training your doing involves throwing and before you have even engaged your hips to launch them, they are all ready on the ground> Believe mate, ive lived a little while in Iwama and been uke to SAITO SENSEI for months, And its all about being thrown, not taking Ukemi but recieving it.
First, a really interesting post - you really highlight the diffs between Akido and Jujutsu very well. My concern with the aiki approach is the difficulty adding force to an opponants technique. I know it can be done in certain circumstances but your opponant can easily adjust, as long as they adjust a fraction faster than you the technique won't work. Its a bit like the continous roll outs to counter shiho-nage. Aikido seems to lack techiques that prevent their opponant adjusting.
THis is a very important step in Aikido training, this is so true mate, but Not in KIHON training(the most important). Your role in basics is just to hold strong or attack strong and maintain a strong attacking feeling through out the tech, NO PUSHING,PULLING CHANGING GRIP, MOVING SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT ETC, Basics is just to learn the movement in its most simple form, this as i said will generate a very strong and SEnsitive body. As the training level moves up in the class then these points you make should be aplied so you can adjust with ukes movement. As i said if just practice flowing techs all the time , it may look nice, but it will be very very weak. That is a simple case of people not learning proper Aikiken or how to cut with a ken and take the same feeling into your taijustu and how to drop there wait properly. It is very easy to stop people trying to roll out of the tech, but they better be capable of good ukemi or the will be damaged.
It sounds mate as if you are not that interested in learning Aikido or being a little patient. I get the feeling you just want to go to the class to find out how it dose not work. You may have found a very weak club my friend there just as many bad MA clubs of all style as there are good, infact i would imagine more bad.
This is tiring. :bang: Continuous roll outs are because nage is doing the technique wrong. Period. Nage adjusts as uke adjusts, just like ANY other art. :bang: bambeer.
Guys I've been really respectful to you and Aikido and I'm just given my experience of Aikido. After all this is what the forum is all about. As for the roll outs - that just happens to have been an example I have seen. I understand that the Aikidoka can adjust. My concern is they can't adjust fast enough to maintain an advantage. Aikido works well against very commited techniques that are hard to adjust. But when faced with a technique that is not as highly commited (say a boxers jab), then aikido loses effectiveness.
What total tosh, you have simply attended a school that has very bad if any basics. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN LEARNING AIKIDO? i Practice agianst a boxer sometimes, its good training to get out of the basics all the time, its a good way to free yourself up and use th eprinciples of moving the whole body and just try to block. ITS NOT THAT AIKDIO WONT WORK AGAINST A BOXER, ITS YOU THAT WONT WORK AGAINST A BOXER,
So sorry I hurt your feelings, but your examples are garbage and show a lack of understanding of not only aikido but basic martial arts. Boxers don't concern themselves with kicks, takedowns, throws or chokes, maybe you can go be concerned with them for awhile, I'm sure they'll just love you. bambeer
Thank you, its nice to see there are others out there. Maybe we can start an aiki support group. Take care, bambeer
As Aikiscotsman states, Kihon Dosa is by far the single most important aspect to quality aikido - This includes ukemi. Unfortunately many people who know little of Aikido as a discipline know even LESS about ukemi, why it exists, what makes a good uke etc etc. Being a good uke is by and large the, the hardest part of aikido to learn. Regarding compliant training: In the beginning a new student walks through the door and we begin to teach them aikido, techniques and applications must be entirely compliant otherwise that person gets hurt. Unfortunately many clubs and organisations IMHO just don't recognise the need to lift the quality and standard of Ukemi thus; their overall technical ability in the system its self is low by comparison to schools and organisations which place huge emphasis on ukemi. It is my direct experience that the schools of aikido that have poor (or lower quality/ability in ukemi) rely heavily on compliance and co-operative drills for their technique to work, I note there is all but always huge gaps between uke and tori's hips thus; technique really isn't applied in nature. The reverse however means that technique can be applied with physical effort where uke is 'made' to take ukemi because their centre is physically moved... In nage waza that involves their body being lifted from the ground and in kansetsu waza their posture and ability to stand is removed through quality movement that requires tori to place themselves (at some point) in the space that uke occupied. This form of training is not 100% reliant on compliance. About resisting opponents Resisting opponents are important for tori's understanding of 'applied' application of technique however, resistance can only be safely employed when both uke and tori are well versed in ukemi and waza (this can often can years of training) I have seen two students (newcomers) who were shown (by me) basic nikyo they were both told to apply it gently and yield when the pressure became uncomfortable yet, despite this advice one of the pair decided to resist the application, the other naturally applied more pressure. I ended up in casualty with the injured party who we thought, had sustained either a subluxation of the wrist or a fracture - luckily enough for all concerned it was just a very bad sprain. I rest my case. Regards
By far the best aikido comment i've read in ages. Being committed to the attack and follow up, not simply giving away your center and maintaining a presence after the technique is hard to learn and in my opinion even harder to practice. respectfully, bambeer
Actually I am a fan of aikido - I firmly believe it has a place in an effective Martial artists tool. As I have stated before I believe that Aikido is very effective against commited attacks. However you believe I'm talking 'garbage'. So Aikido is no good at defending commited attacks then? Chill dude, why don't you lose the Caps, aikido is going with the flow remember? While I only do Aikido for cross-training purposes (My main art is karate - for over 15 years) I have had the opportuinity to train with some of the best. Let me recount a lesson with Kanetsu Sensei (6th Dan)about three years ago. He was teaching counters to punches. All went very well against the commited punches, he threw the guy around like a ragdoll. However the guy then used a punch with more 'snap'. Kanetsu Sensei (as much as I respect the guy) was helpless at dealing with it - and he's probably one of the best at basics. I'm not saying Aikido is worthless, it undoubtedly has its place, I'm just saying its got some holes. Let me ask this question - how would you deal with a less commited, snappier attack?
Why worry about the snappy attack? Thats never the one that matters. Boxers jab and then throw a hook, etc. Karateka have combinations, a good MMA man will feign a punch then shoot in for the take down. The final attack is always committed and the one with the energy that allows aikido to work. If all you worked with in your exposure to aikido was one "committed" attack, then you had the pleasure of being in a beginners class. Nothing wrong with that but please take it as only that. If I went to your dojo and watched a 1 year beginner practicing solo kata I would not judge the entire art on that, please don't do it with mine. bambeer
No i meant it worked against any form of attack, it all comes down to how you percieve it. You can go to the best teacher in the universe teaching the greatest art in the universe, that dont make you any good even after 20 years mate. Its all down to your attitude to your training. I think your looking for a quick fix art. They dont exist. As for snappy punches here's an example to prove you wrong, the first time i was in Iwama i remember at one of Sensei's many partys, the deshi were invited to ask anything, as usual i could not think at the time, although now i have a million questions. Anyway somebody asked how you would defend against a snappy punch from a karateka or boxer, so Sensei Simply got up pulled up and uke who also praticed karate and told him to pull his punch, What did the Chief do? He simply adapted and the boy in Typical saito style went flying. I think the word here is ADAPT.
I'm not so sure - I've knocked people out with an Uraken. But how do you deal with it? - you can't stand there blocking snappy punches until the cows come home. You'll get hurt - no matter how well you block. Kanetsu sensei is no one year beginner. To my knowledge he's trained for over 30 years. Please don't be offended - but I honestly have yet to meet an aikidoka that can deal with multiple blows. I've also trained with several other masters around the world - some of whom I've even invited to teach within my own dojo.
Time you found some real aikido then mate. Cause it dont sound as if you have found one yet. Here is a question for you, if you came up to my dojo and tried our class and wanted to go toe to toe with me and send in a flurry of punches. What would you expect me to do for you to still consider it Aikido? Lets say you attack like a boxer with snaps, hooks, uppercuts etc, i know there is know way i could simple stand there and block or evade them. but What if im prepared to take a punch or 2( as ive had plenty in my life) and instead i just attack straight through you ie Kokyu nage through the face/throat and instead of any open hand i turn it into a fist and with the same feeling of kokyunage/iriminage and tski from ken i just smash straight through your face. WOULD THAT BE AIKIDO? Remembering you cant spar in aikido as it means nothing in reality.
Im confused as well as to why you would expect an aikidoka to stand and try to defend from the punches or block them, IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE SHOWN? aikido is about taking control and the lead, what if i just attack you before you get the first punch in Would ther be something wrong there? Honestly Gakyu im not trying to be nasty to you, but i wil defend my art to the end. Im just really interested in people thoughts on the art and what they have been taught, as there seems to be so much doggy poo out there.
If I recieved uraken, it would be a perfect setup attack to any ikkyo based technique. Irimi. No blocking maybe parry, direct entry off the center line. BTW do mean Kanetsuka, Minoru sensei? cheers, bambeer
