power punching

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by jorvik, Apr 30, 2010.

  1. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    ok I'd be interested in opinions about maximising punching potential. I just found this ,
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKwO5-ji1rQ&feature=related"]YouTube- Makiwara Demonstration[/ame]

    and I kinda referanced it in my own mind to a couple of other good clips
    i.e. these
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ySW_mvNdqo&feature=channel"]YouTube- Delivering your punch: shoulder and hip[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6JdzCbXFE&feature=related"]YouTube- Tommy Carruthers Showreel - Underground Edition[/ame]

    I'm not knocking any of these, I think I can learn from all of them.but what? and how?
    I didn't do too well at punching a piece of paper, at least not as well as that girl:mad:
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    the fact that that girl is the son of the style's current head, and is a 6th dan might have something to do with that

    i THINK paper breaking has more to do with punch speed, though, but i might be wrong
     
  3. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    You got to put yo ass into it

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYMX_3K_xE&feature=related"]YouTube- Quinton "Rampage" Jackson vs. Sumo on Sports Science[/ame]
     
  4. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    Having recently opened a class on this very subject I would love to have a little chat.
    Since I've started training I’ve been fascinated by power striking first the open hand and now the punch. I’ve tried and tested many styles of power generation, for me Dennis Jones stands out as being one extremely hard puncher here’s a clip of him training for the one shot KO, it’s basically totally unrestricted power punching throwing all of his weight into the punch

    YouTube- Power Punching for the street.[/ame]"][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TYI3ClpP9c"]YouTube- Power Punching for the street.[/ame]

    I think in the makiwara demonstration and on the paper she’s training for the impact on the end of the punch. This can help improve the explosiveness of the strike, and help understand how to concentrate the momentum you’ve built up into one short burst of energy. This can be trained for in various ways, personally I don’t favour that type of makiwara because it tends to bounce the hand back.Heres Dennis talking about impact
    YouTube- Dennis Jones semniar part 3[/ame]"][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnpm6Xr3ZT8"]YouTube- Dennis Jones semniar part 3[/ame]
    and I recently did a clip on impact and a few ways to train for it here’s my clip
    YouTube- How we train for Explosive Impact in power punches and open hand strikes part 1[/ame]"][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaZZcLzIELQ"]YouTube- How we train for Explosive Impact in power punches and open hand strikes part 1[/ame]


    I noticed in the rampage clip when he hits the bag his right foots back and on the computer simulation of him he’s got his right foot forward little mistake there maybe?

    If you've got any specific questions Id be happy to give my opinion from a power punching point of view

    Heres a link to more of my thoughts on the subject
    http://instinctive-combatives.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1242.15
     
  5. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    I think I was in the crowd in the second clip!

    My theory on power punching.......almost every one can punch hard, certainly hard enough to KO. Most people can already punch harder than their hand/wrist can take when hitting a hard surface such as the face/jaw.

    What most people dont have is the delivery system that allows them to use that innate power, or the confidence to use a pre-emptive strike.
     
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    double post
     
  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I hate that Peter Consterdine clip - particularly when he says Karate doesn't work - although I am sure he probably regrets his choice of words also.

    Personally, I don't like the "opening and shutting" of the gate (in terms of hip movement) that Consterdine promotes in this vid, as I think it is misleading - and goes against every instinct I have as a fighter.

    The opening and shutting thing is a stage of karate learning imo (ie drawing the bow - then releasing the arrow - emulates the "koshi" prep in Gyakuzuki for example) - in order to "feel" the process, but this "excessive" movement should be trained out (see Naihanchi kata training for example) – in order to apply the punch efficiently.

    There is such a thing as “too much hip” in a technique and I am not sure I would waste too much time trying to generate excessive power into one technique - seems counter intuitive to me.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2010
  8. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    Thanks guys for the really good responces, I enjoyed all the clips and learned something from them all .........I think that there is a lot to talk about here...and much of it may seem contradictory.but basically I am looking at self defence punching.not really at sport although with MMA there is obviously an overlap , also MMA don't punch like boxers.
    there are other things to consider also .the girls punches were very fast, Peter Constadine's less so.....now Peter has some experience of Door work so maybe he has the timing a bit better than say I do or the girl.
    So which takes preferance speed or power?.....IMHO I have knocked a guy down with a fast light hook.now that is just my experience and others may differ....really I'm just trying to collate opinions ..and then lay down some effective training for myself..........maybe re-inforce what I already believe.or reject it in favour of something more effective.................thoughts??
    and thanks for such good insights
     
  9. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    The main problem that I see with punching is that people tend to isolate the mechanics, when really they should think long and hard about the situation in which it is going to be used.
    As an example in a street fight situation you generally will be quite close to an opponent, closer even than a boxer, usually such situations tend to be a degeneration of an argument and then a trading of blows, so I would think that you would need to train for that situation and range....now continuing on from that, if you are involved in such an altercation the next stage would be to cover up like a boxer, start to move and jab. so for both situations you would need to think specifically about what you want to accomplish..I think the girl's punch and Peter's are for the first stages of a confrontation and Tommy's for a full blown fight..............the other thing to consider is How much power do you need? I have knocked people out and it was always by a light glancing blow ( this is over many years of training and some times accidently) so I question how much power is needed and also what type of power. I have knocked people down when training with headguards by stepping into the punch and stiffening my arm on contact so that my arm occupies the place their head is ( LOL) and this knocks them down and you can see this same kind of thing in Shomen-ate from the Aikido folks
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U07Dj61RDg8"]Shomen Ate Essex Aikido Dojo (Shoshinkan) - YouTube[/ame]

    although I use a punch
     
  10. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I see a lot of clips where the puncher is winding up like a great big turbine, like the young teenager down the fair trying to get the bell to ring on the punching machine. That is fine if you are looking for the one punch ko, but what happens if that does not work? I would rather have the powerfull punch in my locker but also have balance and the ability to move and hit again.
    What is the delivery system liokault is talking of, it is the legs. Power comes from the legs up through the waist with only a small movement from the arms. Not a great big looping arms that goes past centre line dragging the body with it.

    Look at the clips below. All boxers are hitting multiple strikes, not throwing a single shot in the vain hope it might land.
    There are some Karateka who hit damn hard, but in my opinion in punching range no-one moves or hits like a boxer. So in close range I hit and move like a boxer or at least use boxing principals.
    If you are talking about a street fight, the same applies, I would rather keep my hands high and protect my face.
    If you don't have a knockout punch, who cares. Anywhere you can touch you can elbow and you do not need a massivly hard shot to get a ko with an elbow.
    In the words of Paul Vunak (jkd) if you use headbutts, knees and elbows you have a completely different animal in front of you.
     
  11. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I'm not sure which part of my post you disagree with? I already said that most what people lack is the delivery system.

    As for power punching in the street....its in the street where you can afford to wind up more than in the ring or dojo. The risk v reward of throwing a big swing that ends a fight against the outside chance of meeting a fighter good enough to actually use counter punching after a few pints is worth taking. Not to mention that a good offense is by far the best defense.

    I do wonder if the guys that put in minimum time training at my club doing detailed pad work with really tight guards, wouldnt be better served just training to get a big pre-emptive swing off as a natural response. I really think you can train a big swing in a few hours a week but that you cant train to punch from a tight guard in the same time period.
     
  12. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    NO, totally NO.

    It goes:

    1/ argument starts
    2/ argument gets past the point where either party can/will bacvk down
    3/ some one throws a punch that (a)either ends the fight (b) or continues into an offensive barrage that ends the fight (c) becomes a defensive clinch

    The real key is to spot when a situation crosses the point into the territory where it is going to kick off, then get to the point where you are confidant enough to be the one throwing the pre-emptive shot.

    Being the one to begine the offense is worth 100 hours of tight guard training in the street.

    Go read more by Geoff Thompson, he covers this a lot.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I actually agree with your post and agree that it is worth throwing a hard punch from wherever your hands are, such as in a street fight.

    I do have a issue though with those who rely on this swinging punch, have no balance and no plan b.
     
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Dosent have to have no ballance, certainly, firing a few really big shots of some pads with a guard being a secondary consideration will give you an idea about how not to fall over if you miss.

    Plan 'B' if the pre-emptive punch (and its not always going to be a punch) is to keep the momentum up with another punch, plan 'C' is very similar.....either the situation is going to change or hes going to fall over, either way, in the mean time its always going to be better to be the guy throwing the punches than it is to be the guy avoiding the punches. You can onlyu be defensive for so long and a very very small % of the population can avoid a punch and counter effectively.
     
  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's worth having the pad holder move the pads out of the way sometimes, just to check the hitter is still on balance.
     
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Indeed.
     
  17. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    Quote
    NO, totally NO.

    It goes:

    1/ argument starts
    2/ argument gets past the point where either party can/will bacvk down
    3/ some one throws a punch that (a)either ends the fight (b) or continues into an offensive barrage that ends the fight (c) becomes a defensive clinch

    The real key is to spot when a situation crosses the point into the territory where it is going to kick off, then get to the point where you are confidant enough to be the one throwing the pre-emptive shot.

    Being the one to begine the offense is worth 100 hours of tight guard training in the street.

    Go read more by Geoff Thompson, he covers this a lot.


    That is what I thought that I said?...and I would make the point also that I practice using Bitch slaps and forearm smashes as well as elbows, I don't just punch.I'm also keen on using my elbows as a shield to let folks break their hands on...........the point that I was trying to make is that people will train different types of punches, I do think that a boxer is very good and I would adopt that approach, however I think Wing-Chun and southern Mantis are also very good for really close in punching, or maybe I should say striking................a lot of folks think Wing-Chun is just chain punching which it isn't there are punches where you turn into it and also uppercuts
     
  18. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    This is a bad idea IMHO, it can lead to hyper extention of the arm and elbow damage. I've seen it happen.

    If you're doing boxng pad drills where the pad holder is moving around between and during combos then its easy to see iif someone is on balance.
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I can see the arguement for your case Snoop.

    I would tend to do this more on hooks when the arm does not extend, just to make sure the hitter is not coming through centre line too much.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I always like to think of the acronym RATS in terms of knockout punching. Range, Accuracy, Timing, and Speed. Catch your opponent with a punch at the right range, on the right spot, at the right time, with the right amount of speed and it's Tweety bird time.

    How do you develop that? Training your techniques, hitting pads and bags, and sparring with other people. Like anything worth having, it takes effort.
     

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