Please, someone give me the honest low-down on HKD. . .

Thank you both Dave and Bruce for the kind words regarding my post. My sincere goal is to be a positive influence in the HKD, MA, and SD communities.

I've also been working a lot on a warrior lifestyle philosophy that I plan to write and teach about that is based on a lot of studying and applying things. I've just started a book based on me living in Korea, but I have created an older Korean who teaches me. It is similar to Dan Millman's Way of the Peaceful Warrior where he created the old man Socretes at the gas station. My book will be full of accurate places and such in Korea, but the teachings from the old man will come from many sources that I have studied. I hope people will find it an interesting book. I've just started, so not sure when I'll have it done and look for a publisher. (I'm doing it among other projects as well) I'm really hoping this book and a couple others I have planned will help many people live better through MA and Warriorship training.

Bruce - regarding your question. My instructors won't talk much about the politics of the various organizations. They said there are politics and that some people abuse their positions. That's about all. As I've said, my instructors have changed organizations a few times in the last number of years. I don't question why, I just want to learn from them. If there is a different logo on my uniform or on my dan certs, so be it. I'm still just learning and training under the same people whom I have developed a strong relationship with. That relationship and what I've learned is what is important to me.

My instructors did say this new organization they belong to is run by a person who used to be KHF, so the techniques and such are the same. They believe this new organization offers good support and training for the member schools, so they think it will be good. That's about the extent of our talking regarding organizations. The new organization is this one:

http://www.k-hapkido.org/

My instructor gave me a new uniform from this organization. I still like my old KHF uniforms, but I have some from several different organizations now, with this being the newest. My instructor said it didn't really matter what uniform I wear, but if on trips to Korea we go to something official with this organization, I should be wearing this uniform.

As I mentioned, I also had a great visit with John Johnson who is still with the KHF. We visited a few places, talked about a lot of things, and he treated me to an excellent dinner there in Seoul. He is a true martial artist and gentleman warrior and someone I repect and am glad for what he is doing to help the art as well. We did talk a little about the problems different organizations seem to have, and it seems like they all have them. Just like other martial arts, just like just about anything. The NFL has problems, the NBA has problems, I've seen BAR organizations have problems, we see problems with our elected officials all the time, etc. So John and I didn't talk very long about problems, we had more fun talking about other stuff.

So bottome line, I didn't have any negative discussions about any organization or person while in Korea. (one exception was John and I briefly spoke about an individual in the US and some problems a few years ago with that person that we were both involved with some back then)

As far as who Dojunim is, each of the three schools I go to in Gangneung have a picture of Choi Young-Sul on the wall and he is referred to as Dojunim. There is really nothing else said about it.

I'm hoping to post some pictures one of these days on my site, or maybe my myspace site. In Kim Hyun's school he has a picture of himself under the picture of Dojunim Choi, and that picture has him in the side kick pose with his leg straight up in the air side kicking over his head. HKD has all those kicks too. Lee Jun Kyu once won a trophy in Seoul for kicking, and believe me, he can kick. With my knee surgeries and back surgeries, I know I cannot and will not kick like them, but that's okay. They have always told me, when real fight, kick low. I still work on high kicks, and I can do some decent, but not like they can. That's why I say that you can find all the fancy kicks in HKD too, not just TKD. In fact, I think you can find better kickers in some HKD schools than in TKD. Because a HKD person will kick you anywhere from top of your head to your feet. I have seen some great TKD kickers too, so I don't want to take that away from them. (I've seen some great Karate kickers and such too)

Hope that answers the question a bit.

Yours in Training,

Alain

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

 

Yes, Alain and I think a kind of answer of sorts to what was being bandied back and forth before.


"....

As far as who Dojunim is, each of the three schools I go to in Gangneung have a picture of Choi Young-Sul on the wall and he is referred to as Dojunim. There is really nothing else said about it....

......"

Maybe, in a way that sort of says it all. The pic goes on the wall and speaks for itself, and the rest is just following the training path one chooses, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

The best way I've heard Hap Ki Do described is "Aikidos Nasty Cousin" the philosophy of Aikido is to defend yourself with out injuring your attacker, however hap ki do has no such philosophy, many of the techniques are meant to seriously injure your attacker by destroying joints, striking them in areas to cause the most damage (ie kidneys, face with elbow, groin ectra) although many of the joint locks, throws and ideas are the same... another major difference is that Aikido is large sweeping circles while hap ki do is small concise circles close to your center (in the area of your navel... a little lower). I know some people put a lot more in to their replies, but I think this is probably the most simple way to describe it.

 

everything evolves. What HKD is today, will not be what the world knows as HKD in 10, 20 or 30 years.

I started JJ training about 30 years ago. At that time, they showed basic footwork from a postured defense against a sword attack. Obviously, this is old school. Nice, but not "as" relevant as someone yielding a 3-5" blade, or worse, a gun.

All things evolve, some good, some not so good. The real question is, what are you looking for in an art.

I was in SM HK for 20+ years, which focused on high kicks, less throws, etc.,

I'm now part of Shinsei Hapkido, and you can see the Japanese influence in this system. Given Korea was occupied by Japan until the end of the war, there was certainly influence/evolution of the arts during that time as people needed to learn/understand how to defend against other arts/techniques.

HKD Instructor, affectionately referred to as "MasterLock"

 

I agree.
And as Marc Tedeschi once wrote in his book... what is considered effective may not be as effective, or may even be ineffective in a different geography, time and with different people.
That's why hapkido may have to evolve and to adapt constantly to modern times.
Claiming direct lineage, as the "original and traditional" martial art of Dojunim Choi, well... who can truly tell this? Learning other styles and cross training is good, but without loosing your roots... not for making a mixture of different styles and make your own "whatever"-ryu/do style, is something, that somehow the original masters of many hapkido derived styles have done themselves (namely KSW, HRD, SMHKD, TKMS, HJMS, KSHKD, HMD, ICHF, etc).

Best regards.

 

To go along with the last post.... my instructor is constantly telling us 'If it works, use it!'

 

You are kidding, right?

 

Hmmm.... not kidding.
With your signature of "Preserving Authentic Hapkido for Future Generations (Not the only one, just one who is...)", you from the JKK had said it all (at least, the way you insist it is).
Honestly... do you really think that hapkido the way you have learned it, is the same hapkido about 50 years ago, the one Choi Yong Sul taught originally to their first generation of students? Unless, you are korean, and about 70 years old nowadays.
Please, I am not an expert, just an enthusiast of hapkido. But when you see the little films from the 60's of the main first masters, the hapkido, at least in the artistic part, seems very much improved now than in those first years. Maybe, now is better.
And about evolving, and adapting the system to new times... for example, we do not practice much from sitting in the floor position techniques cause they are somehow nowadays obsolete.
Hapkido as an art, has a personal interpretation. So the way you do techniques, must have been influenced by the way your teacher has done them, and these by the way your teacher's teacher had done it before. That's lineage. So, my hapkido may not be like your hapkido. And to accept another people's way as valid, requires humane humility.

Best regards.

 

No, thats not what you said. You questioned who can claim direct lineage. Well, the founder of the organization to which I am a member certainly can. Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo is one of 4 men (3 living) given a 9th Dan from Choi Dojunim - the highest level he ever awarded. That is senior lineage, pure and simple.

As for not learning techniques, well, thats why the art is diluted in some circles. The example you provided, seated techniques is about far more than just about being seated on the floor. The rules of motion and principles of leverage alone these techniques teach ensure they will never be "obsolete".

You want people to have humility, fine, but show me some certification and time in training with the Founder of the Art. Grandmaster Lim trained with Choi Dojunim from 1965 until he stopped teaching in 1984. Sorry, but the main reason many people (maybe not you) crosstrain and call for "evolution" is because they have never REALLY learned Hapkido. After almost 30 years of training, I have seen many variations, none come close to the power of Choi Dojunim's original teaching. In addition, having trained with men that started with Choi Dojunim (in Korea) in 1949, I think I can say categorically that Choi Dojunim's original material is alive and well, and not much in need of evolution...

 

...never really trained hapkido?
The Suh brothers, Lee Jo Bang, Ji Han Jae... just to say some names, have never really trained hapkido? Not to mention many other grand masters.

Well, again and again, the same stuff over and over.
I'm not going to argue about these with you, cause if something has controversy in the martial arts world, is hapkido's history (the same old arguments).

Just for curiosity.... who are those 4 original Grand Masters who officially had the 9th degree black belt directly from Choi?

Best regards.

 

See, you ask about lineage then try to throw a few names out there as if they have actual standing in the art...

Suh, In Sun - 1st Dan, Joo Bang Lee, no known ranking from Choi Dojunim, Ji Han Jae, 3rd Dan confirmed, MAYBE 6th Dan from Choi Dojunim.

Now in their own arts, they are tops, I guess. But in terms of Hapkido, only Ji Han Jae has any standing. So there is no real controversy, only honesty. And, yes, I would say that the vast majority of the people who claim to teach Hapkido have seen only a shadow of the art. Again, its so simple Hyung, show the PAPER - its not the only moniker of talent, but it exists for those who actually trained with Choi Dojunim, because he absolutely issued rank.

The four men with 9th Dans:

Chang, Chin Il - Current Dojunim - title passed directly by Choi Dojunim
Lim, Hyun Soo - Head of Jungki Kwan, Longest training student of Choi Dojunim
Kim, Yun Sang - Head of Yong Sul Kwan
Lee, Yu Su - training partner of Kim, Yun Sang (deceased)

We can argue semantics all day, but in the end, show me the paper, without it, most arguments about standing are moot.

 

I don't know that your line of thinking is going to bear fruit, Hyung. As you have pointed out so clearly, not a small part of what is under discussion is a matter of personal beliefs. As a veteran of many such discussions I know that it will go nowhere.

For myself, I too could claim lineage as a third generation (Choi-Kim-Me) but what would that actually say? Does that actually put me on a par with my own teacher who was a student of Ji and later a student of Choi? I think what is actually being bandied-about is a matter of bragging rights based on peoples opinions. Kim Dojunim presented paper, in the best American "SHOW-ME" tradition, and that paper was called into question. So, whats the point? People are going to believe what they want to believe. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

You sound like you want to practice MMA to me...

MMA is all that hapkido claims to be.

I practiced Hapkido for years.

The throws and arm locks really didn't work against my friends that wrestled and boxed.

But when I started MMA, I started beating and choking my boxing and wrestling friends.

And it's fun!

 

Just because Hap Ki Do didn't work out for you doesn't mean it doesn't work.... it just means you didn't practice enough or truly learn the techniques

 

Out of interest, would you agree that training in a truly sufficient manner will mean that most martial arts will work? Why?

 

I would agree if some trains hard enough, and trains in the correct manner (good form, right technique) that most martial arts will be effective. The thing about Hap Ki Do is that a couple of inches off can make a big difference that is why it is important to train and train and train. Repeat each skill 100's or even 1000's of times to make it work correctly. Also if your attacker/opponent has time to think about what is going on then its not as effective... in other words if you don't know the technique well enough to do it with out thinking about it you can't do it fast enough to be effective

 

The opposite is definitely true: now matter how effective the techniques are, if you don't train hard, they will be of little use.

 

In the matter of Education, Motivation and Dedication are almost the defining criteria for success. I am not only speaking of MA, but of securing a degree, getting into a professional school and applying what one has learned to establishing a career.

The bain of MA is something called "magic thinking" in which people become enamoured of exotic practices and arcane nomenclature, believing that in some magic fashion they will become the masters of combat and undefeatable. Many commercial enterprises bank on this sort of thinking and promote it---even exaggerate it--- in the hopes of making their venture a commercial success.

So.... if you are interested in MA as something other than a novel or fun-sy passtime there are three facts you need to start warming up to.

The first reality of MA is that it takes hard work, regular training and mastering the boredom of practicing the same thing over and over again, then over and over again. The immature and those addicted to novelty need not apply.

The second reality of MA is that on any given day, any one person can beat any other person, or vice versa. What makes the difference is being willing to do what is necessary to increase the odds of ending the fight.

The third reality of MA is that there is no "easy road"---- there just isn't.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Hi

This is a very simplistic and amazingly way off base comparison of Hapkido and Aikido. I don't train in Hapkido so i will not be trying to counter this comparison by speculating on what Hapkido is. I will simply say that it seems as with most MA that there is more in common between the arts than is different. Your description of Hapkido i recognise very much as Aikido.

D

 

DKYLE - From my reading I don't think my statement is that far off base... I am also a hap ki do practitioner, one of the black belts in my dojang is a prior Aikido student and we've had this conversation multiple times. To let you know where I got my knowledge of Aikido from this book 'Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere: An Illustrated Introduction by Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti' If the book is misleading then I am way off base. I also did alot of research in deciding to take Hap Ki Do instead of Aikido and read a lot of articles online comparing to two arts. If you still feel I'm way off base please explain my errors