Please, someone give me the honest low-down on HKD. . .

Certainly a lot of people passionate about HKD in here!

 

Yes, indeed! I think Hapkido people are among some of the most passionate practitioners you will find. Where I think things go awry is when that passion is directed more along the lines of "....and let me tell why what I do is the right way.....best way..... only way...etc etc". With so many communication options available including YOU TUBE, these forums, e-mail, DVD/VCD-s and so forth we could be doing MUCH more to communicate rather than deprecate. There is still that matter of "protecting turf" and I am not sure how to get around that. I think that may become a matter of individuals making a personal decision not to take this approach. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

It's sad, but not surprising, to see that your tactic of diverting the logical stream of a discussion to an unrelated and unsubstantiated subject has not changed over time.

I quoted a part of one of your posts in which you said very clearly that Lim and Kim cannot acknowledge each other's teachings because they are competing for the top spot in some pecking order that you have created in your own mind. I then asked you to show us evidence for this claim. In order to substantiate your claim, you would need quotes from both men that support your position. In other words, you need to produce evidence that:

- Lim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Kim's to that position.

- Kim is on record as saying that he is at the "top of the pyramid" and has a superior claim to Lim's to that position.

Do you have that evidence, or not? If you do, produce it. If you don't, then we can all see your claim for exactly what it is, and draw appropriate conclusions.

Your words speak for themselves. I imagine that others reading them can see the same thing I do.

Now, I'll sit back and wait for your reply, which, no doubt, will dodge my second request for evidence to support your claim in favor of yet another bunch of screed about all of the problems you perceive in the "Hapkido community" and my blind, emotion-driven support of a master who is only interested in building a commercial enterprise. And, once again, we'll be able to draw appropriate conclusions.

Hi Chris, hope you're well... thanks for your comments.

 

Dear Folks:

I have just posted the third YMK Hapkido Hyung - - "Nae Ki Hyung Sae.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2968570/8514658

Along with No. 3, I have also posted previously Nos. 1 and 2.

Nos 4 & 5 are down the road a bit; probably August or so.

The use of forms is varied across the Hapkido arts with a heavier use found on the more Chinese-influenced side of the house. The YON MU KWAN Hapkido forms were organized by MYUNG Kwang Sik who had a strong background in KONG SOO DO (now known as TANG SOO DO) and the influence from the Okinawan contributions, through Japan, are readily seen in these forms. Enjoy.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

There is nothing to bicker about, Howard.

Kim does not have to say anything since he is already sitting "at the top of the pyramid" from an organizational POV. Lim speaks loudly by not acknowleging this and working to further his own organization rather than submitting to the authority of another. And if I pursue this exchange with you any further this thread will deteriorate into yet another episode of bickering over who chooses to believe what about the Hapkido community. You have your hero, and I am not finding fault with you for your choice, whats the problem other than the fact that you have personal issues with me?

Kim has the authority in writing, and Lim has 6 years of "secret training". Fine. You want to go with "logic"? Its logical that if one is documented to hold an office, as we say here in the States,"possession is 9/10ths of the Law", yes? What do you want to do now; argue about authenticity of the documents? Thats the next step in this chain, right? Fact is Howard, that you choose not to believe something and choose to believe something else. This has nothing to do with facts or logic or any of the rest of that embroiderie. Its about you having personal issues with me and using a public venue to vent them. Personally, I am surprised that the Mods haven't stepped in, but maybe in your own way you are showing the World what the REAL Hapkido mentality is about.
Great.
Have a nice Life. The last word is yours. I don't do this anymore.

Regards.

 

To be honest, how many others have acknowledged this?

One of the issues that I feel people have a hard time with is that this authority came from Doju Choi's family and not from those who spent time in Hapkido.

Using an example for those who are not familiar with this topic, this is how I understand it...

A medical organization was formed whose goal was the development and advancement of medical procedure and technique. Many talented and devoted doctors took part in training and development over the years, but one unfortunate day the founder of the organization dies. Who has the right to pass on the leadership role? The family or those with years of knowledge of the field and it's development?

No secret about it. We know at least 10 years he spent with Doju Choi (1976-1986 Doju Choi closes his dojang and teaches out of Jung Ki Kwan until his untimely death) and this does not take into account the time GM Lim spent with Doju Choi after leaving the dojang of GM KIM Young-jae.

 

"....To be honest, how many others have acknowledged this?

One of the issues that I feel people have a hard time with is that this authority came from Doju Choi's family and not from those who spent time in Hapkido.

Using an example for those who are not familiar with this topic, this is how I understand it...

....."

And that, Chris, is Exactly my point. Who IS going to acknowlege any of this? This bickering goes round and round in circles. No actual information is given and no conclusions are ever
finalized. And no sooner is it done on one Forum then its starts all over again on another forum!

In his recent book, Dr. Kimm (intentionally or not) made it abundantly clear that the history of Hapkido is one long "quarrel". By the time I was done with that book I was probably the most angry and bitter I had been for a long time! And I don't think it would have affected me so strongly except that the whole time this has been going on, all the participants (leaders) have been presenting that they are actually coming out of some far higher and more noble place. :bang:

Now, lets take a look at the Matter of KIM Yun Sang for a minute.

Yes--- I agree completely.... in the best of all possible worlds it would have been nice if Hapkido people had been involved in designating a successor to Choi's son. I am in agreement. Typical of circumstances, it was the family---specifically Choi's daughter-in-law who took steps. Over in Japan during the succession in the DRAJJ, things ran afoul almost for exactly the same reason (except in that case the challenger--- Takeda's Daughter-- failed to make her case). So what now? How long is life suppose to be on hold before we get closure on this and start making the Hapkido community more cohesive?
My own opinion is that it is NOT going to happen and the reason it is not going to happen is that secretly leaders LIKE things busted-up into little fiefdoms with each leader the prince over his own domain.

But, ya know what REALLY gets my undies in a knot? The fact that people will spend weeks and even months bickering about this crap, and you can't get them to have an intelligent discussion that might move the arts ahead some. I made overtures about having such discussions down at Jackson, Miss this last time and was firmly rebuffed and bounced off of Dennis McHenry's website!! I raised similar issues over on DOJANG DIGEST and got the same treatment!! Look at the thread you started a couple of days ago..... how many people have contributed there? And this is not some new phenomenon--- to my knowlege this pattern has gone on for at least 7 years that I know of.

I don't pretend that I can stop others from perpetuating old behaviors which is why Howard's getting nothing from me. I'm done with this crappy sniping back and forth.

(Here rant ends; cold towel applied to back of neck; 12 oz. P.O.)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I agree with Chris the Family of Choi have no authority to appoint a Doju except in their own minds.

It's also clear the GM Kim was not ever accepted by his peers that says a lot IMO.

Next GM Kim doesn't have a lot of training history with Choi he was a once a month part time student for 10 years (page 335) Dr. Kimm's new book.

It's very funny to me how in this country people tell of the great masters with years and years of training under one master, when in fact it's very far from the truth in many many many cases.

 

Stuart, I don't know how to make this any clearer. I just don't.

When CHOI Yong Sul himself was alive, HE couldn't keep these people together!!! When he died, there were at least 6 major Hapkido arts or organizations and gawd-knows how many tiny ones. And we are talking about the guy who is generally identified as the start of this mess. Now if the guy who supposedly STARTED all of this could not get people to agree and stick together with the full weight of one of the most Confucian cultures on the face of the Earth behind him, what the hell hope do WE have!?!

 

what the hell hope do WE have!?!

You have the hope of your training. Train to perfect what you have. If you want more and want to teach than train to impart as you were shown. In that purity you have hope.
We cant change the politics of people. KMAs, Church, Government but that does not mean that great and beautiful things don't exist within these follies.
Regardless of the arguing about who did what each of these guys gets on the mats and teaches. In these moments of training its all moot.
Thats the duality of this mess. Someone trains under X and experiences that moment then gets caught up in we are the best. Crapola. We are as good as our technique, training or ability to teach and understand it.
The best we can do is train harder, teach more and try to set better examples.

 

Bruce I agree with you and have been well aware of this for many years, but it still doesn't add any weight to the fact that GM Kim was not appointed Doju by Choi Yong Sul.

I'm also wondering how you feel about the fact that all this training for X years BS is not really a true litmus test for knowledge and skill as I've been saying for years and now.

Dr. Kimm lays out many peoples training times with Choi and others and it's not very impressive based on todays so called standards and TIG.

 

More unsubstantiated nonsense.

Show us where GM Lim claims to have had six years of "secret training".

As it happens, there's no need for me to add anything of my own. Rather, I'll just quote what another member wrote earlier in another thread. I can tell you from personal experience that he speaks for many of us - far more of us than you will ever acknowledge. You see, I'm far from alone.

 

Well..... let me put this another way, Stuart.

If---- If a person was identified as being THE inheritor of the CHOI YONG SUL tradition, would you---Stuart---- drop what you are doing and join his merry band? What I am saying is that if by some magic there was one person identified as the head of Hapkido do you really think that all of the folks in all of the organizations that exist right now would drop what they are doing and follow him?

Do you honestly think that the SIN MU, KIDOHAE, KHF, WHF, IHF, WKA, etc etc would all stop doing what they are doing and fall into line. Hell, no!! Because its about each group cheering on and rallying-around their identified hero. Its not about who has THE honest-to-gawd authority regarding Hapkido. Its about folks who are fighting for the sole sake of fighting and arguing for the sole purpose of arguing.

 

No I wouldn't drop everything and run and the HKD arts is too broad for that at this point, but I do believe such a person could be a great resource for all of the HKD arts as a mentor.

Another words if I wanted to learn some aspects of Hapki Yu Sul from GM Kim but had certain questions, etc... would he want to make himself available as the source to help all the HKD Arts equally.

I see this as the role of a modern Doju v.s a HKD dictator who says it's my way or the highway.

I felt very fortunate to be able to discuss tech with GM Lim and according to Mike D that was indeed very rare but open opportunities to learn from such people regardless of affiliation is very precious should be made available.

This type of behavior might be what the HKD arts need to bring people together.

 

Then, I submit in all possible candor, that these discussions are now, and have been, a "fool's errand". Despite the fact that people dangle the possibility of reconciling differences, the honest truth is that noone really wants differences reconciled, and that if differences WERE reconciled NOONE would act on that reconciliation so as to bring Hapkido under a single authority. In other words--- it is as I have been saying all along. To wit:

People WANT the schizmatic nature of the Hapkido arts. They WANT it this way and they LIKE it this way. And if it were possible to have it this way or NOT have it this way, people would vote for keeping things divided-up and conflictual.

 

You asked a question I gave you an honest answer.

A true Doju would have a lot to offer and I would like to drink from the water, however I have no desire to follow blindly in the confucian model if some do it's ok with me.

I also believe what B. Lee says "take what useful etc...."

IMO Choi's HKD is somewhat out dated material, Ji's somewhat more progressive, but the evolution should serve us not the other way around.

Bottom Line is it's not a fool errand to learn what someone has to offer and complete unity should not be a requirement it's too late IMO.

 

I think you are missing my point, Stuart. You are talking about the blessings to be had and I am talking about the extant nature of the Hapkido community.

What I have noticed is that quarrels about some aspect of Hapkido, or its leadership, seem to carry the implicit message that if a disagreement could be reconciled, a split between practitioners could be closed and those players and their practice reconciled. The truth is that this is not the case. The truth is that even if differences COULD be reconciled, practitioners would continue on their merry way, as before, regardless.

So whats the point of all of this mindless bickering other than that people like to do it, yes?

 

I read through the posts and agree that this topic stirs things up at times. Not sure why, but it does.

I just returned from Korea, where I was been training with my hapkido instructors here. With that, I'll share a little of what I believe hapkido to be.

It is a Korean art that has roots that include Japanese Aiki Jujitsu. It is sometimes argued as to the relationship between Choi Young Sul and Takeda in Japan, but it is obvious that Choi brought back a lot of Aiki Jujitsu to Korea. The art then had a lot of kicking added to it, as the Korean arts are known for kicking.

The art has evolved over the years and it will continue to evolve. My instructors here just told me that I must continue to train and improve techniques to make them faster, make them hurt the opponent more, make them more effecient, etc. My instructors teach techniques today different than they did 10 plus years ago. I remember what they were teaching white belts back in 96, and it is different than they are teaching white belts today.

I refer to instructors in the plural because I originally studied in Kwanjangnim Kim Young Jong's school, and Lee Jun Kyu was his Saboem. Kim Hyun was one of the top students there as well. Now, Lee Jun Kyu has his own school, and Kim Hyun has his own school too. So I train at the different places. However, Lee Jun Kyu is my primary instructor. (Kim Young Jong is not teaching HKD right now, he is busy with his chiropractic practice and teaches Ki Gong classes which I used to study under him as well.)

Anyway, there are a lot of politics involved in HKD like there are in many of the arts. My first 2 dan levels were under the Korea Hapkido Federation, which is one of the biggest federations for HKD. Then my instructors changed organizations, so my 3rd dan was from a different organization. They are now under a different organization, so my 4th dan will be different too. I did not change federations, my instructors did. I could care less about what federation I have a certificate from, I care about my instructors and the relationship I have with them. That's all that matters. I know they are very good men, have taught me so much, and that I will continue to learn from them and respect them for the rest of my life.

So what is hapkido? It is a martial art that contains all of the following: Breathing, striking, kicking, forms, joint locks, throws, knife defenses, gun disarms, weapons such as short stick, middle stick, staff, nunchaku to use Japanese term because more people know that term, cane, belt, fan, and sword.

Some HKD schools out there do not kick much. I personally, due to knee surgeries and back surgery, do not kick anywhere near what my Korean instructors can. However, my instructors can kick with the best of them. HKD has some of the best kicking you will see. It is not because they also do TKD. Go to Korea and watch some of the HKD masters, who only do HKD, and you will see some fantastic kicking, high, low ,spinning, jumping, etc. Some HKD schools do not do forms. My schools do. I teach forms because I learned them from my instructors so I continue to practice them and teach them as well.

One thing you will find in all HKD schools is the joint locks. These are some of my favorite techniques of HKD. However, HKD is much more than locks. Unfortunately, many places that do TKD will say, oh yeah, we do HKD too. But they just do a few HKD techniques, not the entire HKD curriculum. The defenses, which include locks and throws, include techniques against all sorts of grabs, punch attacks, kick attacks, weapon attacks, etc.

Hapkido is also an art that you find the principles of harmony, water, and circles taught. Circles are everywhere in HKD and very important. Blending with your opponent and using his force against him is also important (harmony). The flowing and different aspects of water are also found in many places. One of the things I was working on just yesterday was the concept of taking static techniques such as a person grabs you, and then do those techniques while moving. You must learn to flow and to harmonize with your opponent's energy. Basic technique would be for your opponent to grab your shoulder, then you advance to him grabbing shoulder and pushing, then grabbing and pulling. You must be able to blend with the movement and perform the techniques no matter what. You must also make each technique the most effecient that it can be making sure to maximize your strengths and minimize your opponent's strengths and exploit his weaknesses.

In HKD you will find very flashy show techniques and demonstrations that are not as practical but look cool. You will also find very practical and effecient techniques that work. You will also find people at higher levels that will do things to people that some might think won't work, but do.

HKD is a very comprehensive art. There is much to it. Unfortunately, in some places some of this has been lost. Some people think HKD is just a couple of joint locks added to TKD. Or some think HKD is just a blend of TKD and Aikido. As I mentioned earlier, it is also evolving. Things change. This last trip to Korea I learned some cool little things to make certain techniques better. One was a simple shoulder roll to increase the effectiveness of an arm bar. When it was shown to me, I went, wow - cool... Then over dinner in Seoul I shared this with a 5th dan from the KHF and it was new to him too. We are all learning and growing all the time. John and I talked a lot that night about how HKD is growing and how the art is individualized by the different people practicing and teaching it. My HKD is different from his, because we have different instructors and backgrounds. My HKD has incorporated lessons learned from non-HKK instructors I have had and real life experiences with fighting and violence. And you know what? That's a good thing. That is what is great about HKD. It can be different, but still with the same core principlese and such. The fighting and bickering about who or what is better is a waste of time.

As I said, besides being a comprehensive art, it is also an art that continues to change and evolve. last week with Kim Hyun, we did a little ground work that was more BJJ. He was saying how JJ went from Japan to Brazil and how they developed that into a good ground system and that it was important to know some of that too. HKD is a more stand up system, with the philosophy that you should stay off the ground, and many of the basic ground techniques are just how to get off the ground. However, Kim Hyun has practiced more ground stuff from BJJ so he can be a more complete martial artist and instructor. He said it was important to increase all of your martial art skills. I agree with him. That's why I sometimes do groundwork that I have learned from other sources in my HKD classes. I tell my students, I learned this from Mike Swain at the seminar last week, or from whatever source I learn it from, but after a while it all blends into MY Warrior Arts, and eventually into MY teachings. I was a sniper instructor for the U.S. Army, so that is part of MY Warrior Arts as well. And while I don't bring a sniper system to my HKD classes, it is part of me, and still influences my overall training and teaching.

Another thing that my instructors stressed was that it was important to think right, speak right, and have a good heart. They said that was one of the most important things, and that students watch instructors, so it was important to act right at all times. Teaching is very important. They were glad to hear that I wrote an article for Black Belt on Character. (And I recently sent them another article on Character that I'm still waiting to hear about)

Someone posted earlier that what is important is what you do on the mat and how you train. That is right. I have Dr. Kimm's new book too. I have only read a bit of it, since it came right before I left for Korea, and I didn't take it with me. (Too big!) I do plan on reading it very soon, and I actually just ordered another copy for one of my students. We can both read and discuss things about it. But while history is important, for me the practical aspects, the training, and the striving to make things better, faster, more efficient is the most enjoyable and important part. I'm not as concerned as much with who's who as I am with the relationships with my instructors and students, and how can I make myself a better martial artist and a better instructor. What skills can I develop, and what skills can I pass on? That is what I focus on. The warrior lifestyle is a part of me, and I believe my training and studying make me a better person. I don't have time to bicker over stuff. Too many positive things to work on. Hapkido is a very important part of my warrior lifestyle and training, and it always will be.

Anyway, those are a few thoughts on HKD from someone who just got back from Korea. The trip was too short, and I can't wait to get back there again. Hope this helps a little regarding HKD.

Hapki!

Alain Burrese

www.burrese.com
www.aikiproductions.com

 

Alain,
thank you for that post. Glad to hear you had a great trip. What you wrote is exactly why I train.
Its that passion for our art that makes it so rewarding.
You are a true leader in our community.

Thank you!

Dave O.

 

Great post, Alain!

Though there has undoubtedly been contention in the past, it seems as though the folks in Korea are not as overt about it as one finds in the West. Have you noticed as well? To me it seems that even Korean nationals who relocate to the West seem to become more territorial and autocratic. Training with Kim Dojunim I never saw any sort of rancor or heard any kind of criticism about this or that person of organization. Is this similar to what you experienced?

Best Wishes,

Bruce