Please, someone give me the honest low-down on HKD. . .

From what I've been able to determine, Hapkido looks pretty cool. I like the idea of a TMA that combines both striking and grappling. There seems to be a confusion of information, though, and I'm not sure what the problem is.

Let me give you some examples. . .

1) I've had people describe Hapkido as: TKD - flashy kicks + throws and jointlocks. But then other people bitterly dispute this. Is this an inaccurate description? Specifically, is HKD striking similar to TKD? Are there flashy kicks in HKD?

2) Some have described HKD grappling as being very similar to judo and others describe it as being very similar to Aikido. (I have also heard some say that HKD grappling came from aikido . . . while others say it came from jujutsu.) Then again . . . I have also heard some say that HKD grappling is NOTHING like judo! Well, which is it? I know that when I watched some "PRO Hapkido" videos on YouTube that not only did the throws look like Judo but the tournaments looked similar to MMA competitions. Not the same . . . but similar, i.e. punch, punch, kick, grab, throw, arm bar, tap.

3) I have also heard that HKD is not a competitive art. And yet, I can find videos of competitions and hear of people frequently going to competitions. Are competitions common within Hapkido or are the exception rather than the norm?


If anyone could provide some answers, I would appreciate it. I am looking to get back into martial arts and would prefer something in the TMA realm. Just FYI, my background includes 1 1/2 years of TKD (as a kid), a few months of Wushu (as a teen) and 6 months of Judo (as an adult). My favorite thing about Judo was the great amount of live training against resisting opponents.

 

HKD is a style of Jujutsu (from Japan) that mixed itself with native Korean kicking prior to TKD.

It's not Aikido but some schools later mixed with Aikido and even some with TKD.

However the original system that I do is neither TKD or AKD influenced.

With that out of the way HKD is one of the best all around systems today, it's more geared as a self defense system not a sport.

 

I think the main reason you see HKD with flashy kicks nowadays is because of the number of TKD schools that teach HKD on the side. You get a lot of TKD people who also claim to know HKD when, in reality, they've learned TKD striking intertwined with HKD self-defense techniques.

Since HKD is an art geared towards self-defense, flashy kicks should NOT play a big part in the curriculum. The head of my federation (USKMAF) does not advocate kicking above the waist area.

Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as "Hapkido grappling" at least not if you're talking about groundfighting. Most Hapkidoists would try to avoid the ground if at all possible. I believe a lot of the Pro HKD guys have experience in other arts like Judo and BJJ. Personally, I started training in Judo to make up for HKD's lack of emphasis on grappling. I view HKD as a complete stand-up style that teaches full range of striking, locks, and throws.

At this point, HKD competitions are still probably the exception. However, good HKD schools should still do some type of sparring (not TKD-style point sparring) even if they don't compete.

I think Judo compliments HKD very well. To be honest, you might have a harder time finding a HKD school that does the same type of intense "randori" that you find in most Judo schools.

 

BSR:

Thanks for the time to reply. That's some good information.

Now to elaborate, here is one of the PRO Hapkido videos I found on YouTube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1NLUm1-UXXU

I see a lot of Judo and even some BJJ type stuff in here, including hip throws, double-leg takedowns, rear naked chokes, arm bars and a guillotine. As you say, though, perhaps that has to do with the fact that they're cross-trained in other styles. I guess that's my question, though. Are THESE moves indicative of what you would learn in a HKD class?

And here's an example of a Hapkido tournament video that has some relatively flashy stuff in it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GOCgfuajpJs&feature=related

As far as cross training between HKD and Judo goes, I think that's what I was kind of trying to avoid. I've been considering doing both TKD and Judo but was thinking that if something like Hapkido can kind of provide both sets of skills and experiences then that's better than trying to split my time and money between two schools/classes. . .

 

Dear Priest:

The difficulty that comes in is that Hapkido has developed as a function of the priorities and goals of two generations of opportunists. Dr. KIMM He-young has just recently published a rather heavily detailed history of the Hapkido arts and has confirmed this observation to my complete satisfaction. Since about 1957 there has been a hailstorm of controversey and competition as people---both Korean and non-Korean--- have worked to use Hapkido to garner standing, recognition, status and revenues for themselves while discounting what everyone else is doing. This is very different from, say, a more standardized MA such as SHOTOKAN Karate which is pretty well-defined.

Having said that, there is some good news ---- and some bad news.

The bad news is that there is so much variance that everyone has their own story and trying to inter-relate these stories can drive you nuts. If this is your tase, I suggest you get Dr. Kimm's book, read it and consider it pretty much the final word on Hapkido from that standpoint.

The Good news is that there is so much variance that with some dilligent searching you are bound to find someone whose goals are in-line with your own. They may not be in the same town with you but at least you don't have to learn something and wish it was something else.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I think you've pretty much answered your own question - Hapkido is a versatile art.

 

That sounds like an interesting story. Perhaps that also addresses some of the confusion that I have in that it seems that I have read so many things where people are always claiming to have "the REAL" Hapkido because it came from this grandmaster or that grandmaster . . . or whoever.

What's the name of the book you mentioned? Is it a new title? Do you know where I could find it? Amazon, perhaps?

 

If I'm interpereting what Bruce said correctly, as well as going off the impression that I've gotten reading things from other posters, it seems almost as if there are multiple "Hapkidos" and the type of instruction you'd receive in one school might be significantly different from what you'd receive in another (especially in regard to grappling and, perhaps also, kicking and even weapons). It also seems as if there is a lot of in-fighting between the camps with everyone thinking that their version is legit while all others are some sort of abberation.

 

I think you've pretty much nailed it.

 

Sorry, Priest; I'm usually much better about that.

The book is absolutely "hot off the press" having just come into the country from printing in either Korea or China.

"History of Korea and Hapkido" by He-Young KIMM; HANDO Press, Baton Rouge, La. (No ISBN); 736pp.

Right now the book is so new that the only way you can get it is directly from the author. Addr:

H. Kimm
4816 Jamestown Avenue
Baton Rouge, La 70808
(225) 924-2837

I can say without fear of contradiction that Dr. Kimm is probably the most thoroughly endorsed scholar regarding things Hapkido, if for no other reason than he tends to keep things clear, concise and objective. I can't say that this sort of candor is always welcome by everyone but at least he can't be accused of skewing things one way or another as is the case with others.
As I mentioned earlier, its a bitter pill for me to swallow reading the "behind-the-scenes" stuff but I'm glad someone finally came forward and did it. My bitterness comes not from the fact that people were representing themselves as "the most legit". My own bitterness comes from the fact that legitimacy had little or nothing to do with things. People added and subtracted; mixed and matched and generally just dicked-around with what they knew and learned with an eye towards developing a product to match the market. THEN.... when they were ASKED about it... THATS when the lying started!!. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

This is, of course, true. Although Hapkido is certainly not the only art that suffers from this kind of nonsense.

The best thing for you to do would simply be to visit any HKD schools in your area, see what the training is like, then decide whether it's what you're looking for.

 

I'd second getting Dr. Kimm's book. I've read excepts from it, a friend of mine called Dr Kimm to request the book to use in a class he'll be teaching come fall semester, and it's very informative from the parts I've read.

Also, to answer why it looks similar to juijistsu and aikido - It is my understanding that Choi Yong Sul studied Akijujitsu under Takeda Sokaku, as did Morihei Ueshiba, the creator of Aikido.

 

Yes, thats pretty much the "company line". What gets downplayed significantly is the matter of the many folks associated with the Hapkido arts who had background in Japanese arts and contributed that material without actually acknowleging the source. For instance, SUH Bok Sub traditionally held as CHOI Yong Sul's "first student" had a background in Judo and may have contributed significantly to the Hapkido curriculum in the early years of its formulation including the GUEP/DAN ranking system, chokes, throws and groundwork.

In like manner, MYONG Jae Nam, an identified officer with the Aikido organization was also a member of coalition that produced the DAE-HAN MIN-KUK HAPKIDO HYUB HOE (Republic of Korea Hapkido Assn.) in 1973. When the organization broke-up in 1984, one of the three organizations produced was the International Hapkido Federation. However, noone talks too much about how much Aikido material was adopted into the Koreantradition while that earlier union was active, such as various techniques, philosophy and execution.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Some people overstate this vastly. Particularly if they have an axe to grind or an agenda to pursue.

Hapkido is a fragmented art. That's because Choi was not able to hold together his original students, several of whom went their separate ways. Once Ji Han Jae began teaching on his own, a whole new strand of the art began to develop under him and his senior students.

However, the fact that there are many different Hapkido organizations does not mean that they all fight among themselves.

Most of us have a live-and-let-live attitude toward kwans/organizations other than our own, and are happy to learn from each other. We train our way, you train your way... what's the problem?

As for Suh Bok Sub having contributed Judo techniques to Hapkido's curriculum, I'm unaware of any verifiable evidence of that. Choi learned a comprehensive system in Japan that undoubtedly was a form of classical Jujutsu that included aiki principles. Classical Jujutsu has defenses against many different garment grabs and chokes. The garment-grab defenses that Choi taught some of his direct students bear little resemblance to Judo techniques, but a lot of resemblance to classical Jujutsu techniques.

The same goes for throws and chokes. Both types of techniques are prevalent in classical Jujutsu systems. There was no need for Choi to borrow from Judo.

Finally, Choi always maintained that he taught faithfully what he had learned in Japan. And that certainly was not Judo.

 

"....Most of us have a live-and-let-live attitude toward kwans/organizations other than our own, and are happy to learn from each other. We train our way, you train your way... what's the problem? ..."

The "problem" as you say, Howard, is that this is all "ear candy" and is tolerance of the most cosmetic and superficial kind. I have been in the offices and changing rooms and on the edges of the mat when 6th and 7th and 8th dans discuss people out on the mat and the teachers of those people. I know 80 y/o women who gossip and back-bite less than do these high-placed "leaders".

"As for Suh Bok Sub having contributed Judo techniques to Hapkido's curriculum, I'm unaware of any verifiable evidence of that. "

Well then lets take a look. Hapkido has a DAN/GUEP system of rank which did not exist in DRAJJ when Choi was suppose to have been learning it. JI didn't bring it in since he had no experience before training with CHOI, but did report that he was a 3rd Dan in HAPKIYUKWONSUL when he started his own group in 1957-1959. Where did that ranking come from? Further, I will agree that CHOI may not have had Judo-like throws and chokes in his original material but it is certainly there now. And since JI and KIM did not have Judo experience where did these throws and chokes come from. As you say they don't bear resemblance to DRAJJ?

This is the same round-n-round stuff that I have witnessed for years now.

 

That would be "supposed", Mr. scholar.

Can you read English?

I said that Choi did have throws, chokes and garment-grab defenses in the material he brought back from Japan.

Furthermore, I didn't mention Daito-ryu...

Please, read a little more carefully, learn to spell in English, and learn to use logic.

 

Yes, Howard:

I can read and write in English. I understand I communicate in it very well.

And you, sir, -----believe it or not -----just made my point.... and exactly my point.

In the Hapkido community oppositional behavior is raised to an art form. Essentially, my post gave back to you pretty much what you said. Most times when this happens--- in the real world---- people smile at each other, chuckle a bit and agree that they are saying the same thing. In the Hapkido community people have a crying need NOT to agree with the other person for fear that they would then be perceived by others as having "lost" an arguement to a "more knowlegeable" or "better informed" individual. I have seen threads where people have started discussing one thing and got down to bickering over spelling, grammar, syntax, context and anything else, just so as to not be seen as having "lost". (Look at your own "dig" about "suppose/supposed". Did it make you feel good to be right or one-up? See what I mean?) Fact is, Howard, in the Hapkido community its not about knowing and learning; its about being right or being wrong--- being the same or being different. In the Hapkido community if people start agreeing, then its not seen as a "good" thing. Rather, people start scratching their chin and wondering "whats wrong with this picture?". KIM Yun Sang and LIM Hyun Soo teach very, very similar material but there is no way in hell they are ever going to agree that they do because then there would be two contenders for the top of a pyramid that, in their mind, only has room for one. And I could go down the list from teacher to teacher and its the same damn thing over and over again. Two generations of opportunists with nothing on their little minds except "whats in it for me".

You really, really need to read Dr. Kimm's book.

 

Bruce on a side bar Dr. Kimm has done the same thing in KMA as his own observations. He made himself top dog (Hanmudo), certainly Hanmudo made no new significant new contribution to KMA he just did a minor reshuffled of the same old deck with a new name IMO.

Using myself as an example I believe I'm making more real changes and more significant impact to benefit KMA then Dr. Kimm, however as a nobody so to speak it will make little impact at this point in time.

 

Yes, yes. Believe me, Stuart, when I say that has not gone over my head. After all of that crap about how members of the Korean culture honor their elders and prize their culture, it was a very bitter pill to swallow when it became obvious that it was all just so much "cheerleader-speak".

 

Now when I say I don't care about the Korean Culture in regards to the KMA you see what I mean.