phoenix eye conditioning!

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by goatnipples2002, Feb 4, 2003.

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  1. goatnipples2002

    goatnipples2002 someone tryin 2 learn

    How can I condition this strike. Just tell me what you guys did and your insights. What did you guys do to condition your forearms, shins, and body.

    Is it possible to get struck by a proper PE and not get hurt?
  2. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Of course you can do damage by hitting any target of someone's body - that's not what I said. I am saying that IMA is about economy of movement, so rather than train our shins for thigh kicks, or our knuckles for punching someone's skull, it's easier to train methods to strike the vitals. As my teacher says - it doesn't matter how big you are, there's no way you can strengthen the front of your throat.

    "...Thanx for the definition of internal vs external arts, but I really don't give a **** either way...."
    I respect that g-nipples - that's why all these forums are divided into separate arts, IMA isn't for everyone. But I just said you should call it what it is, and from what I understand of IMA, the phoenix eye isn't internal. Whether it is effective is another discussion altogether, I just wanted to respond to the posts that were saying "who cares, let's just call it internal"

    "...Circular or straight line...the shorter distance equals the shorter time right? but...the straight line has a shorter wouldnt' that be quicker? But I'm not criticizing circular motions, because I use them as well...I'm just saying......"
    Point taken Imperial Guards, but that would only be correct if the defence and attack were separate movements. In karate, for instance, you learn to block, then punch (in the beginning) as separate movements. The principle of IMA is to MAKE your defence your attack. The beginning of the curving movement is a block/rollback/diffusion of the attack, and it is supposed to blend naturally into the next movement (using the attacker's momentum as well as your own) to rebound/redirect/sweep as an attack. So the principle is that one curve (defend/attack) is faster than two straight lines (block/attack). If you're not familiar with tai chi attacks, look at aikido fighters, where a lot of their moves are a lot like exaggerated tai chi applications.
  3. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    A couple of things.

    Conditioning. We condition by hitting each other mainly shin on shin, forearm on forearm, fist on palm, palm on palm, back on back, hip on hip, chops on collar bones, chest & stomach, kicks and palms to the sides and legs. We use head-on impacts, glancing/twisting blows and grinding/pushing...

    ...But I haven't done any phoenix-eye conditioning in class. Maybe it comes later - I'll try to remember to ask. I can easily imagine that phoenix-eye is trained hitting against a palm once the palm is iron. I can't think of anywhere on the body that would be practicable and painless enough to work it apart from that. In my out-of-class experimentation I've tried matching phoenix-eye against phoenix-eye in a pushing competition but it was very fiddly keeping the knuckles aligned to the other guy.

    Leaning on the fists as you do standing pushups against a wall, including doing explosive ones as if you were punching. I've just this moment 'invented' another one. I stood up, leaning on a PE into my canvas wall-bag and retracted that hand , shooting the other PE out to catch my fall into the bag. It doesn't feel right to me because these motions are counter to the style philosophy but hey, I'm only going to do 10 or so reps so maybe it's cool. This kind of thing will lead you to be able to pushup on PEs but, as has been said, PE's hurt the reciever a lot anyway - I've got too many deficiencies to stick this on high priority.

    nzric, my style trains the neck/throat to take blows and strangulation-type attacks using exercises and conditioning. I heard of a (Russian?) guy who demoed taking baseball bat strikes to his throat. And what is that Shaolin spear in throat thing? Probably kosher despite those silly (IMO) bendy shafts.

  4. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Yep, there's conditioning for the neck, especially the muscles around the throat, but there are acupressure points there in everyone's body, and the carotid will also be sitting just below the surface. Do it yourself - press the hollow in the base of your throat (at the throat part, not the top of your chest), or anywhere down the side of the windpipe where you'd take a pulse (carotid) beside the muscle, or tap the top of your neck in the hollow under your ears, or give yourself a (light!!!) glancing tap along the front of your windpipe, or...

    The throat is just cartilage so you can train the surrounding muscles to be larger (covering more of the throat/standing out more from it) but the weak points will be the same.

    Off topic - sorry
  5. imperial_guardz

    imperial_guardz Master In Training

    I'm sorry Shaded, but...I have to disagree to that statement...
    Shaolin arts were kepts within the Shaolin Temples for many hundred years...forbidden to public because of one philosophy...Shaolin Monks are buddist...and the arts were kept only for buddist because it was intended not to kill, but to defend.
    Buddist believes a life is a life no matter how big or small...and everything deserve to you should not matter revenge, no nothing...Not even an ant!
    So I would have to say that statement is false...Shaolin arts is not meant to kill...but to defend...Shaolin monks learn the art of killing in order for further understand to go around these techniques, to prevent killing...If you don't believe me...go to the shaolin temple!

    That only works if your more skilled then your opponent! But if your opponent is a master of straight line attacks, try and begin your circular motion, and it won't work...Face a good wing chun opponent!

    I have to agree with David on these conditioning technique...however he seems more hardcore into conditioning than I don't do some of them...[rubs neck and head]...

    Imperial Guardz
  6. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Tai chi is a wudang art, not a Shaolin art.

    No matter what variation of the history you go by, it's pretty universally agreed that it was invented by doctors, then disappeared and was revived by the Chen family, who kept it as a family technique until Yang Lu Chan made it popular (in the army/court of the Emperor). It draws a lot on techniques from Wudang mountain, among other places, but it has nothing to do with monks.

    "....Face a good wing chun opponent!..."
    A common topic of conversation in tai chi circles. A lot of tai chi/internal arts methods are designed to specifically counter wing chun.

    Also, tai chi isn't something that you learn quickly, I never said it was easy! Even the top masters say it takes years (I think about six is the agreed time) of the correct training to be able to confidently defend yourself with tai chi. If you go to an external arts dojo, after a few months you will be able to do a reasonable punch/side kick, but the martial aspect is only one tiny side of why people learn tai chi (that's why it's not for everyone - it's not a quick fix).
  7. imperial_guardz

    imperial_guardz Master In Training

    I am well aware...I'm just stating that...Shaolin Arts weren't made to kill...unlike Wudang!
    So we wouldn't be doing moves to kill...unless required.
    A guy threatens you with a baseball bat...if you can safely disarm him...and get away without killing him...why would you commit manslaughter right? That's my point of view...but then again...I'm a buddist as I share the shaolin aspects and do not kill at disrespect to Wudang.

    Yeah I have read that Tai Chi was created by doctors...but I am not a Tai Chi practitioner so I haven't followed up on the art. So I do not know too much about the history...just the basics...

    Well that may be true...but to be efficient in it requires many many years...for style is a balance between internal and external martial arts and it takes over 15 years to become a master of the arts...even more than that! So saying that Tai Chi requires more dedication is so self-centered! White Crane or well as any other martial arts takes just as much dedication to become a true master of the art!
  8. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I was about to bother responding to all of the above (Goat & Guardz) and then I just went; nahhhhhhhh

    Lifes too short, ;)
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2003
  9. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    All I'm saying is that it's much easier to throw a straight punch or to learn a roundhouse than it is to learn fajing or a joint break. I wasn't talking about becoming a master. If you learn many other arts for a couple of years, you could be pretty confident using a lot of what you learned in a street fight, but if you learned tai chi, you'd be stupid trying to go into a real fight with an internal style after just a year or two of training.

    I'll leave the other comments. We should keep this thread about the phoenix eye.
  10. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    I hope you didn't think I was reffering to your last post? I was talking about
    Goat and Guardz.

    Syd, ;)
  11. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    No, I was referring to guardz' comment re: tai chi needing dedication and saying I was talking about normal fighting ability, not becoming a master.

    So - How 'bout that phoenix eye !
  12. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Yeah, gee.... I think I'll stick a phoenix eye on my Christmas list and hope Santa comes up with the goods!

    Must be how Rudolph copped that red nose.... Santa & his phoenix eye.
  13. zun

    zun New Member


    How'd I miss this thread???

    I swear there must something wrong with my settings or something!

    Oh, well. Good read anyhow.

    A tai chi master avoiding the imminent kill :D
  14. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Or setting up for it. Relaxed posture... radar scanning for vulnerabilities... sung stance...
  15. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Hi again imperial_guardz,

    forgive me. As i said I was speaking purely from an outsiders point of view.

    Obviously someone practising Tai Chi isnt going to go into a competition or fight thinking, hey i am going to kill this person. I understand that the majority of strikes made by someone practising Tai Chi on an attacker are designed to knock the attacker out cold.

    However, there are killer strikes taught. Have a look at some of the videos made by Erle Montaigue as he talks about strikes that will kill your opponent if used. He is not saying do them, just that there are killer strikes.

    Thats all I was saying.
  16. goatnipples2002

    goatnipples2002 someone tryin 2 learn

    The point you are talking about is cv22. My most favorite place to strike. It shuts ANYBODY up! heeheehaahaa!:D

    I believe you also said that the reason you don't condition externally is because you focus on striking vital soft targets. What the hell do you think I do. I just condition externally for the piece of mind that my finger, wrist, or hand won't break. If you practice striking anywhere but vital spots you need to rethink your training. As anybody with fighting experience knows not all of your strikies are going to land where you want them to.

    (you should use the PP names, it makes it easier to describe..... do you know the names, if you don't I got a site for you?)

    Why do people use the word opponent when it comes to self defence? Are you in the ring? I just hate the fukked up mind set that people have of self defence.

    Last edited: Dec 2, 2003
  17. Shade

    Shade New Member

    I am guilty of using attacker and opponent in my last post but do not apologise for it.

    Dont know about you but my dictionary says opponent means one who opposes another. And for oppose it says to argue or fight against.

    That sounds like an attacker to me :D
  18. zun

    zun New Member

    No difference in tai chi. They both get killed.
  19. goatnipples2002

    goatnipples2002 someone tryin 2 learn

    NO an opponent is in the ring trying to win the match. Nobody says look at his attacker throw a low roundhouse. It's about mindset.

    An attacker is someone trying to take your life or rob you or rape you. Nobody says 3 opponents raped that girl.

    **** the dictionary. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOUR MINDSET. Have you ever heard Where the MIND goes the body will FOLLOW. It really doesn't matter if you agree or not. We can agree to disagree and talk about some conditioning techs. or experiences. Just tryin to give some insight. (my sig says it all)

    NEways how's yall's day. I learned a new hubud today. I love it.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2003
  20. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    ...I believe you also said that the reason you don't condition externally is because you focus on striking vital soft targets. ..

    No, I said (and Syd's been saying as well) that we don't do traditional external conditioning because qigong exercises and the nature of tai chi means you're not meeting force on force, so you don't need to do that conditioning (also, it's bad for your body in the long-term, so it's against the principles of tai chi).

    Of course you should train your body and your muscles - the only thing I disagree with is knocking your knuckles around until you thicken the skin/fuse the bone/deaden the nerves.
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