FAIR? FIGHT? A contradiction in terms. I think that is something else that many people just don't get. Howya doin bear?
I have to agree with koyo and Bear. It's not what you know in a street fight that matters. It's what you're prepared to do. Like so many people on this thread have said. There aren't any rules.
On the street, the ability to be able to take a full power strike on your body (a knife stab on your chest will be different) is important. You may be attacked by surprise but if that attack can't hurt you enough, it may just wake you up, and the guy who just hit you may just ask for trouble. In MA, there is nothing more important than to be able to - take, and - finish. We have seen so many movies that have scenes such as: Someone hit your head with a stick from behind, you turn around, smile at him, and then tear him in pieces.
I've fought in the street... Really depends on the type of person you are. It's not about skills in a street fight... it's about variables. And i'm not talking about all kinds of variables that can happen in a street fight.(Weapons, Sneak Attacks, etc etc) I'm talking about... If you cannot effectively defend yourself in a cage against someone where theres rules to protect you if you go down. What makes you think you can survive these situations you're telling me about. For example. Let's say that you agree that you cannot beat a pro cagefighter(This is hypothetical). Now.... Let's say you and the same person get in a heated argument outside the cage environment. And he ends up getting physically offensive. What is going to change... besides him killing you this time since theres no rules to hold him back. I respect all arts... I'm just asking a question.
People you may have to fight on the street are most likely non-MA guys. They ususlly throw their punches with eye closed, without power, without focus. They don't use fake, set up, and they are all very "honest" people (if you kick your opponent, he will try to kick you back right away even if he may not know how to kick). People you have to fight in cage are experience MA guys. They know how to play the game well. It's a complete different environment IMO.
Context. Pyschological impact and stresses pre, during and post. The nature of the initial assault. Professional fighters rarely start fights in anger with professional techniques - they flail just like everyone else. You are comparing a cage fight with a square go, and the two overlap considerably. Everyone else seems to be comparing a cage fight with a violent assault/robbery/rape/ambush - and that truly is a different matter - both physically and psychologically.
My ONLY reason for posting was to address the fact that Bas had obviously seen an aiki bunny there are far too many about and therefore logically decided aikido is ineffective since a punch was caught and a throw applied. No one is more critical of this nonsense than I because I have seen,experienced and trained with the first generation masters of aikido. ALL were crosstrainers in others arts which offered competition NONE of them engaged in supposition. Their art ment much more to them than "what if" As Bear has posted..if you have not had to fight "for your life" everything else is supposition. I have no interest in supposition at all.I prefare to post from experience.
I've lost count now of how many times (in other threads) I've mentioned to him how context impacts on things :bang:
To be perfectly blunt lad. I would throw a glass into his face or position one of my mates behind him with a bottle (of which all would do instintively anyway). I might use a chair, keys or even a spoon. The one thing I would never do it fight the guy. You control the environment, it doesn't matter how good the guy is. If I thought the situation was bad and the guy could be calmed then I would do that. There is just no way on earth I am fighting a skilled fighter one on one without rules because even if I win and am going to be a mess. The Bear. Hi, Koyo, I'm good thanks.
Greetings Bear. That's great, though most people will think just like that. Including the "skilled fighter" you're hypothetically up against. There's also the occasion where you can't go ninja, won't get theose opportunities when you wish for them. And you both may have to rely on what you got right there and then. the real issue here is training properly to deal with scenarios eg. multiples and weapons. As we have gone through before - and you agree I think: The optimum training methods remain the same as for one on one bare hand. We have to accept that all things being equal the better fighter will have some advantage on an individual basis. and that's exactly what sport fighting recreates in a restricted setting (rules). The better fighter doesn't always win though.. fighting has this funny habit of not always going to plan, so to speak. These different scenarios may for instance call for a survival mentality rather than a win mentality. It is a different matter, but the difference is 'just' mental and tactical..
The rules in the cage, wouldn't they also be there to secure income? If the fight get to bloody and ends to fast with no action, you would loose spectators and the money they bring, making the whole circus collapse.
Cloudz The problem with some aikido clubs is that the training does NOT toughen you up.I have seen aikidoka who are NOT fit and tough when the training should do just that. IF I am tough at all it is down to being thrown pinned strangled and generally beasted about by the best in the art.Down 8 up 9 is not a philosophy that is common in the art. Until that returns ALL aikido shall be victim of criticism. The mystics and aiki bunnies should try a few sessions using techniques like below. The "victim" is Chris who also does circuit training and muay thai.
I have been with two Aikido clubs in my very limited experience. The first was a very relaxed sunday morning affair where it was very hard to even break a sweat. There was no conviction in any of the techniques performed. Although it was this first club that grabbed my attention for Aikido I can see now that the training being given there was not up to snuff. Having been with a Yoshinkan club for the last three months I can tell you the difference in training is incredible. I am sitting at my computer trying not to move too much because we all got completely battered for two hours straight on wednesday night, doing a single technique for two hours straight. (the seconf one in this video only much much much slower [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo"]YouTube- Takeno Sensei 8th Dan Yoshinkan Aikido Tokyo Enbukai (1993)[/ame] sorry i dont know the name of the technique, its early days) Sure it's painful but it was fantastic conditioning and hard training. To me that's how it should be. Half of Aikido seems to be to learn how to take a good beating correctly
The second technique is juji nage (cross arm throw). As I said welcome to MAP and congrats on finding a good club and instructors..not easy to do these days. How to take a good beating?? BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
Juji Nage!!! We were doing that the other night. Scared the bjesus out of our students. They all tried it though.
Apologies if I am incorrect, but the second technique looks like katate mochi hijiate kokyunage. Jujinage involves folding uke's arms to form a "+" shape. This shape is the symbol for the number 10 in Japanese. So jujinage is figure "ten" throw. This can be a hard throw to fall from as you don't have your back arm free to reach for the mat when taking the fall if shi'te doesn't release. As a beginner, hijiate kokyunage is a relatively easier technique to fall from. The uke in the video did a forward roll. In the video below, Ito Sensei performs the kihon waza version: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fevav09WEyo"]YouTube- 片手æŒã¡è‚˜å½“ã¦å‘¼å¸æŠ•ã’(一)[/ame]
ah!!Terminology, Juji nage can also mean that the aikidoka's arm and the attackers form the "ten". When both arms of the attacker are crossed we call into juji gatame nage. What the hell so long as it HURTS
Ah ok. That makes sense. I can see how the cross shape comes about there. Like you say, it doesn't really matter, as long as it does what it's meant to
Just to add more confusion, the second technique is also called udekime nage (arm lock throw). When both arms are crossed it is also called juji garami nage (ten form entanglement throw). "A throw, any other name, would still hurt as bad!" (to paraphrase the Immortal Bard!)
