Paul Taylor Ussd

Please let me also add this. As far as information 'right from the sources', well, there are contradictions there also. John, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have stated Mitose only was exposed to the surface arts, he lacked expert ability and was a criminal. I totally agree he was a criminal and according to the court transcripts, he certainly was no role model. Okay, you feel others, myself included, go by second or third hand but you go to the source, one of which you named as Sijo Emperado. Well, remember I did the same thing when researching Mitose. It's on the Kajukenbo Cafe. I made a short list of questions that Professor Gerry Scott agreed to ask Sijo in person and one was about the surface arts and possibly training from Mutzu's book. Professor Scott stated that Sijo said absolutely not and that Mitose had the ability of a 'master instructor'. It should still be on the 'Cafe', so this is fact. See again what I mean? Who do we believe? Does this mean someone is lying or is it a matter of opinion? if so, I would have to take Sijo's word for it because he was there, first hand and you weren't, correct? This is another reason why I say we should all just let it go! Too many contradictions, too many inaccuracies in EVERYONE'S HISTORY & LINEAGE!

 

John stated:

Contrary to the rumor that has been put forth for years Tiwanak was not Adriano Emperado's "first" black belt, he was one of Emperado's "early" black belts. Joe Emperado was Adriano's first black belt. To those who insist that he (Tiwanak) was not ranked in "Kajukenbo", it's simple to prove, show us his certificate. And explain to us why his system (CHA-3 Kenpo) teaches Kajukenbo techniques, instead of Kara-ho or Kosho Ryu techniques?

I say: Many of the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems share either the same or very similiar core techniques, a point I have made many times over the years and since Kenpo Karate and Kajukenbo were used interchangeably in those early years, then it's not to say whether they were Kenpo systems using Kajukenbo techniques or Kajukenbo systems using Kenpo techniques......'half a dozen of one, six of another'.

It is my honest opinion that we NEVER want to get into the 'show us his certificate' in regards to Marino Tiwanak or anyone else for that will definitely open up a 'can of worms', for it can be countered: show us Sijo's master's certificate (5th dan) from Chow and all master certificates of the founders who were listed as masters back DURING THE INCEPTION of Kajukenbo or how about Chow's 5th dan from Mitose? We've seen the shodan signed by Thomas Young but how about the 5th that's talked about? the 10th? I have not seen Marino Tiwanak's certificate, so I can't say whether it says Kajukenbo or Kenpo. However, if it does say 'Kajukenbo' on it, isn't it possible in those very early years that the curriculum of Kenpo and Kajukenbo were also pretty much interchangeable as compared to what it is now? I don't know, just wondering. Some say Joe Emperado was a blue belt, is there a certificate of shodan rank that can be posted for him to clear this up? See what I mean? Some things are better left alone. Respectfully, Joe Shuras

 

This is a argument put forth by many of the watered down kenpo offshoots that now want to claim their techniques are the same as Kajukenbo. Saying it over and over again dosent make it true.
Truth of the matter is that none of the Kenpo systems that did not come down from Kajukenbo have escrima techniques in their system. Western b\Boxing techniques. Or a strong influence of Danzan Ryu jujitsu techniques in their system.
Anyone who has seen Kajukenbo "Punch Counters", footwork, or repetition drills, can see the escrima and boxing influence and techniques that are not present in any of the other kenpo lineages. And also the large percentage of Danzan Ryu jujitsu techniques that are present in all the "punch", "knife", and "club" counters.

Geez Joe, we were only talking about one person's claim. In fact it's a claim he never made, but all of a sudden was made by others after his death.
Now you want everyone to dig out 50-60 year old certificates to prove things that were never in question? Wow, we can play this game forever. Where's Mitose's certificates? Where's the certificates from the other 20 Kosho Ryu grandmasters before him?

Talk about getting off topic. This topic was about U.S.S.D.

And this thing about the Kajukenbo founders being masters in their 20's? That's the invention of a few magazine editors. Sounds pretty enticing, and sells quite a few magazines. But it's never been put forward by any Kajukenbo organizations as the "official" history of Kajukenbo.
Simple truth is that these five 20 something gentlemen gave themselves the nickname "the black belt society". Not a great philosophical statement, but hey they were 20 year olds.

Actually, according to the man (Adriano Emperado) who promoted him to black belt, he (Joe) was a green belt under Prof. Chow. But if you want to argue that he was a "blue" belt under Prof. Chow, that's fine. But the man who promoted him to black belt is still alive, and says he made the promotion. So why is a certificate in question?

The Tiwanak promotion was also made by Adriano Emperado. So if someone is going to dispute the promotion he made, then yes they should produce a certificate with his signature on it.


Now if you want to know how stories and claims get inflated, here's one for you.

The forum in question was started exactly 3 years and 2 months ago. You were a moderator for around 2 1/2 - 3 years of that time.
To me that translates to a "couple" or a "few" years. To you it means "several" years.

Now does your statement make you a liar, or a fraud? Not to me. But you can see how statements can be mis-stated, or misunderstood.

 

GEEZ, John! If I knew you were going to come at me like that I would have worn my head gear, cup and mouth piece! LOL. Okay, let's start with 'several' and here's one for you! C'ome on John, I just looked it up in the American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition- "Being of a number of TWO or THREE but not many". And you stated:

The forum in question was started exactly 3 years and 2 months ago. You were a moderator for around 2 1/2 - 3 years of that time.
To me that translates to a "couple" or a "few" years. To you it means "several" years.

I say: Gimme a break! 2 1/2 - 3 years is not SEVERAL!!! Maybe to you it translates to that but not according to a real dictionary. So John, to answer your question, my statement simply makes you in error. Besides John, now you're playing semantics. Only having fun debating, please don't take this personal.

John stated:Truth of the matter is that none of the Kenpo systems that did not come down from Kajukenbo have escrima techniques in their system. Western b\Boxing techniques. Or a strong influence of Danzan Ryu jujitsu techniques in their system.

I say: Wrong again. Truth of the matter is Nick Cerio's Kenpo has Escrima techniques and in one of the volumes of the NCIMAA Newsletters he used to put out there was a section explaining his escrima influence to his Kenpo and showing techniques. I still have the issue. Nick Cerio also boxed and included this in his art. It's clearly in some of his forms. Cerio trained in Providence, Rhode Island, a big boxing mecca at the time. George Pesare, his first Kenpo instructor, had a successful stable of World Champion Kickboxers for the original PKA-the Professional Karate Association that brought the first televised full contact karate bout back in 1974-The Bill Wallace-Joe Corley fight. Pesare's Dan Macaruso, a BROWN BELT, was a PKA World Light-Heavyweight Champ. Danny Mac even beat Jeff Smith for the title and Bobby Ryan, shodan, was the PKA World Welterweight Champ (Ryan beat Ernest Hart)-NOT TOO BAD FOR A WATERED DOWN SYSTEM, IS IT? Didn't remember any Kajukenbo guys back then. See, John, seriously, if it's not Kajukenbo but from the same tree, it's watered down. Let me say this, yes, some instructors water down what they teach the public and guess what? Kajukenbo is no exception either! But you shouldn't lump everyone who's not Kajukenbo but of the lineage in one group. Pesare's people were the first out here in New England wearing those 'black gis', and that was when Roger Carpenter and Nick Cerio was with him and let me say this, no one enjoyed stepping into the squared circle with one of those New England Black Gis-Fact-part of New England martial arts history.

Speaking of Roger Carpenter, he did the bare knuckle fight-no holds barred before many even heard of them. In 1974, in a tragedy, his opponent died from injuries sustained in a bout with Carpenter, the guy who trained in a watered down system. By the way, it's on DVD.

John stated: And this thing about the Kajukenbo founders being masters in their 20's? That's the invention of a few magazine editors. Sounds pretty enticing, and sells quite a few magazines. But it's never been put forward by any Kajukenbo organizations as the "official" history of Kajukenbo.

I say: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......John, those articles that stated that were by-lined with the name John Bishop! Are you going to tell me you didn't proof read what you wrote and they published?

John stated: Actually, according to the man (Adriano Emperado) who promoted him to black belt, he (Joe) was a green belt under Prof. Chow. But if you want to argue that he was a "blue" belt under Prof. Chow, that's fine. But the man who promoted him to black belt is still alive, and says he made the promotion. So why is a certificate in question?

I say: Exactly, when it was convienent for you, you wanted to see a certificate (Tiwanak's) and now you say why is a certificate in question when it comes to Joe Emperado? Hey, some may choose to believe the Tiwanak people as you do Sijo. It's not for me to judge who is right or wrong but it backs up what I said about mentioning certificates, remember I said it opens up a can of worms first! You wanted a paper trail posted to prove James Mitose's story but not one when it comes to Kajukenbo.

In all seriousness for those reading this debate. In those 2 1/2 to 3 years of correspondence with John Bishop both on the net, private e-mails and phone, I learned a lot about the history of the arts and the beginnings in Hawaii. I respect John not only as a free lance writer and martial artist but as a former brother police officer. Sure we have a difference of opinion here in a heated debate but from my perspective that's all it is and that's what these forums should be all about. I am not knocking Kajukenbo for I would be shooting myself in the foot since I am from a subsystem of Kajukenbo, John may think watered down but it has saved my butt more than once in my 29 years on the P.D. so I will forever argue that one with him, lol. Sincerely, Joe

 

Professor Walter L.N. Godin was an original co-founder of Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu. He was the former brother-in-law of Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon. Karazenpo Go Shinjtsu is a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. Pesare, Cerio and Villari are all of this lineage. Godin and Gascon parted ways and the Professor started Godin's Chinese Kenpo. One of Godin's black belts was Professor Martin Buell. John "The Train" Hackleman ("The Pit"), retired mixed martial arts world champion and current teacher and trainer and his student Chuck "The Iceman" Liddel (UFC Champion) are of the Buell/Godin lineage, a subsystem of Karazenpo. I would like to see the man who would tell either of these two men they're foundation and art is from a 'watered down' system! I rest my case.

PS: If you take Sijo's word on Joe Emperado being a black belt (and I agree you should) then why don't you take his word when he says Mitose had the ability of a master instructor? You can't pick and choose. You can't have it both ways, John.

 

OK, now we're having fun. I'll bet those dictionaries were written by one of you east coast guys. Here in the west 2= a couple, 3= a few, and many and several are about the same= more then 3.
You guys even double the count on your deer back there. Our 4 point bucks are what you call 8 point bucks. What's with you guys having to have bigger numbers?

OK, you know I have a lot of respect for the schools of George Pesare and Nick Cerio.
And that when I refer to "watered down" kenpo I'm not talking about them. But am referring to the chain schools who run their 12 month black belt programs, and waterdown their training so a 10 year old can become a black belt.
And yes I would expect Cerio's kenpo to have escrima since it came from Pesare, who came from Gascon, who came from Kajukenbo.
My only argument has been with those who insist that their form of kenpo/kempo is the "same" as Kajukenbo. I never say that they don't have some "elements", or "techniques" from Kajukenbo, just that it's not the same.
Now, go to the dictionary and get me the definition of "same". I'm hoping it dosen't mean 10% or more of identical material.

Joe, you don't get it. That's what magazine editors get paid for. They take your manuscript, and edit it anyway they wish. The writer has no final say in what is printed in the magazine. (Sad thing is that the majority of martial arts magazine editors aren't even martial artists.) Very few editors will leave the manuscript "as is". It's job security for them to "polish" and "jazz up" the articles they send to the printer.
Ever wonder why you look at some techniques in a magazine, and can't figure out why the movements look odd? It's because the technique was shot in 8-10 photos, and the editor cut out 2, 3, or more of the photos.
It's even worse with the written text. I've had articles that only had about 40-60% of my original text. I've even had articles on differant styles where the editor wrote in his own material to proclaim someone he liked, as being the head or authority of that style. It's like any other form of media, some people believe everything they read. So if a editor has a agenda, he can push it onto the readers. It's called "spin", and it happens in martial arts publications too.
So to answer your question, I have never written that the 5 founders of Kajukenbo were masters during the founding years of Kajukenbo. And I have copies of all my original manuscripts.

Yes, me and Joe have been friends for what has been pointed out to me as "several" years :love: Take care brother.

 

John stated: Joe, you don't get it. That's what magazine editors get paid for. They take your manuscript, and edit it anyway they wish. The writer has no final say in what is printed in the magazine.

I say: You're right, John, I didn't get it. I stand corrected. I didn't know that.

As far as your last post I understand where you're coming from and I agree. As we've discussed before in my earlier years (early Villari New England) I didn't like the direction the organization was going in and that's why initially I went to George Pesare in 1978 as a nidan (training there but still operating a Villari school) and later Nick Cerio. Actually, the Framingham school where I trained always had a kick-ass reputation, especially under Hanshi Craig Seavey who's now co-head of the Cerio organization. Things weren't bad at all until he (Villari) started the serious expansion so I decided to go independant in 1981. Big expansions always hurt quality control. However, his schools have since trimmed down and have leveled off, now I've been hearing that the quality control and the caliber of training has gone up. From what I heard this hasn't happened with the 'other guy's' chain and I'm still hearing bad things but once in a while someone has something positive to say about a school. The cream always rises to the top, so it's probably a hard working serious minded instructor who will eventually see the light and go independant. Guys like that usually do fine no matter where they train because they've got that 'extra' if you know what I mean.

John stated: You guys even double the count on your deer back there. Our 4 point bucks are what you call 8 point bucks. What's with you guys having to have bigger numbers?

I say: I don't know about that one, John, I've gotten by so far with just the standard "6", almost, LOL, LOL.

Thanks for the sparring session, I needed to vent those issues with a worthy opponent and you're certainly all of that and more. Again, I appreciate all the help you have given me, I have learned much from you over the last 'several'/'few' ,lol, years! As I have stated before I have the utmost respect for Sijo, his accomplishments and the Kajukenbo system and I'm proud to be a branch from that tree. Take care, God bless and a very 'Merry Christmas' to you and your family, Be safe my brother, Joe

 

As somebody who practices an off-shoot of this branch of Kempo, I will say that I look to BOTH of you guys as Seniors in my Art.

<salute>

-David C
Omaha

 

Hey prof. joe,

Do you remember master taylor when you were with villaris?

 

Master Taylor tested me for my green belt in the USSD. His tests were more like a seminar than the usual endurance contests that took place at the USSD headquarters in Lake Forest CA. Taylor, in my opinion, is a very talented martial artist. His technique was flawless, and he had a great deal of power. The corrections that he made to my DMs/Combinations were right on the money etc.

Now, I'm not one to lightly praise the USSD or the people in it.

I found my overall experience there to be far less than satisfactory. What Master Taylor was capable of was not representative of the vast majority of what one got in terms of training in the USSD. I have confirmed this with several seniors from the old days at Villari's and they all say that the training has been severely watered down over the years. The old school USSD instructors will often tell you the same thing off the record.

Master Taylor is obviously a product of those bye-gone days and it is obvious when one sees him in action. If he were typical of the quality of instructor in the modern USSD, I would have never left.

 

To true danjo!

 

nick cerio

Actually, Nick cerio had trained and had gotten a black belt from william chow, Not too many students studied with chow very long, as he stressed full contact sparring.William "Thunderbolt" Chow
, a Hawaiian kempo pioneer and instructor, began the study of martial arts at age 7 under the guidance of his father ( a kung-fu master). During his youth, Chow also studied boxing, wrestling, jiu jitsu, sumo, and karate. He learned Kempo from James Mitose and became one of only five students to attain a black belt under him. Chow started teaching in 1944. His first school was at the Nuuano YMCA in Hawaii.
In his new school Master Chow made several modifications to the kempo that he learned from Master Mitose. These modifications enhanced the system's fluency, power development, and versatility. Chow went on to award the rank of black belt to a number of students since 1949. Among those, the most notable are Ralph Castro,
Edmund Parker, Nicholas Cerio, Paul Pung, and Adrian Emperado. Hope that helps.

 

hmmm

Nevermind-

 

HI FOLKS!
Just to clarify,Nick Cerio received his 5th Degree Black Belt from Prof. Chow, when he had trained with Chow in Hawaii. Prof. Cerio was not awarded his first degree black belt by Prof.Chow, rather that was George Pesare.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

Gah! No! Must...not...fuel...flames...must...not...type...in...fragments...

It might help to talk to people like DianHsuhe, PacificShore, Grandmaster Kuoha, and Sigung John Bishop. Rather than speculate, just go right to the source.

Just a thought.

 

Thanks kenpo joe!

Thanks joe, my memory slipped for a second as i was in a hurry.

 

Satori you crack me up Taylor is a good MA but his busisness practices are somthing worse.

 

Where does Mr. Burdine come into the picture, KenpoJoe?

Are you still coming to Des Moines this Spring?

 

So does anyone know anything about paul taylor?

 

Just a minor correction here. Yes, it was SGM. S. George Pesare who gave Professor Cerio his foundation, his 'identity' in Kempo and his 1st Degree Black Belt, therefore, Mr. Pesare is the instructor Mr. Cerio spent the bulk of his martial arts training with and NCK is a subsystem of Mr. Pesare's KGS. However, Cerio also received a 1st dan from Professor William K. S. Chow and a 1st dan from Master Bill Chun Sr. I have seen the originals that Mr. Frank Cerio (Prof. Cerio's brother) had given to Hanshi Craig Seavey after being officially appointed as a co-head of the Nick Cerio organization. Hanshi Seavey also has copies that I have seen on display for public viewing at his schools in Massachusetts. There is no doubt to their authenticity and they are not honorary either. With respect, Prof. Joe Shuras