Just a little question to all TKD MAPers> Do you think that TKD patterns/technique are more powerful when sine wave is used? Personally i don't think so but would be interested to see what others think.
having been with the ITF before joining the TAGB id definately say the over axagerated sine wave movement of down up down made it harder to generate more power. Although i do beleive in raisng the body during every technique to create a downward force is very usefull which is almost in the same category as sine wave but without the full blown bobbing
Can sine-wave really be applied in alive-training (i.e. sparring) or actual fighting? Or is it just for patterns/hyungs training?
Personally i would say that it couldn't be applied in alive-training because by the time you executed the technique then the opponent would have nailed you.Thats just my opinion though.
In sparring no chance it takes to long with patterns and set sparring it works only when the partner is doing it also (sorry ITF guys but nothing i seen while with yous proved that sinewave created more power)
Force Direction I don't really like the sine wave much. My opinion is that the body should generate power in the direction your attack is going in. I can't really see what use the sine wave would be whilst using an uppercut. Its also really telegraphic - if, in reality, you raise your bodyweight up everytime you are about to strike your opponent will cotton on. I think its best just to train yourself to blast your entire body-weight through them.
Just what Mahoose said. I use hip snap and slight body weight dropping, not the full sine wave. I wouldn't want to say it can't work for anyone, but I don't understand how it can work and know it doesn't work for me. Mitch
Sine-wave isn't meant to be over-exaggerated. More, it's simply a matter of putting your body weight into the technique. Earlier this year, Sabum Michael Muleta published an article in Australasian Taekwondo Magazine, which clarifies the application of the sinewave in pretty much laymans terms. I'll try and find that magazine, I think I've got it lying around my room somewhere. TKDMitch, what you say about body weight dropping is about right. There is no exaggeration, it's simply a matter of dropping or rising your centre of gravity into the technique, and combining this with hip snap to generate power. With regards to application, it's common sense; get your body behind your technique. As your body follows the sinewave pattern, there are many ways and many different techniques that can be applied. If you blocking downward (such as parrying a middle kick) the body should rise upward into the counter-attack, and vice-versa (eg, blocking upwards, dropping the body weight into the counter-strike). Your momentum keeps moving into your techniques.
I tend to agree with most of the posters. I do think that the sine-wave theory has some merit, in regards to theorizing or understanding about power. However, in an actual combative situation, I don't think that there's much time to prepare for the sine-wave when an opponent unexpectedly throws several combos towards you. After all, the shortest/quickest route between two objects is a straight line and I don't think that a sine-wave fits-in when timing, in fractions of a second, is crucial. I'm not meaning to diss it at all. I just don't think that it, in itself, is something to be used in actual fighting per se. Rather, it just seems like a training tool (perhaps it should be a basic exercise for beginners) to better understand how power may be generated and used. Some may wonder why it'd be necessary to train in something that won't necessarily be of any use or practicality? To most people, I should say. Back when I was competing (sparring & patterns), I noticed many or most ITF-TKD practitioners using the sine-wave in executing patterns but I couldn't see the same movements being applied in sparring. Strangely, when competing in patterns (just like most of you, I was fortunate to have won the odd pattern compo here and there; nothing to brag about, but it helps to lead-up to my next point), the other competitors were performing the sine-wave and yet I'd end up capturing 1st often even though I totally refused to execute the patterns with the sine-wave. I'd just do it smooth, almost hard-karate-style, keeping head-level even (no bouncing up & down, slight or exaggerated) and yet the ITF judges decided in my favour. I didn't get it and I still don't. If they promote the sine-wave, then I don't understand why they didn't judge in favour of all of the others (excellent TKDists) who "stuck to the programme". If I was judging "myself", then I wouldn't have placed me in the medals standings at all, because I wasn't executing the patterns according to ITF-TKD criteria. I could understand if I was competing in open, all-styles compos. However, these incidents occurred at official ITF-TKD sanctioned events Anyway, perhaps it's kind of like learning how to block, when you cross your arms. I guess that it helps the student visualize the path that the arm takes and allows the student to develop a sense of power generation. Later, as he/she becomes more proficient, then that pre-block crossing is reduced to the point that only the end of the previously longer blocking sequence is executed, from a shorter travelling distance but done with greater speed and power. Or perhaps it's like an intermediary stage, like when learning to do the turning kick. In the beginning, some students throw a low, subtle front kick (as if to the shin) and then actually throw the turning kick. It supposedly helps with the momentum, this two-step turning kick. Do you know what I mean? Have you seen this, too? Anyway, as they improve, they remove that little front kick thingo and directly throw the turning kick. Maybe that little front kick is like the sine-wave. When you remove it after long practice, you can directly execute an effective turning kick (in this case, you may can execute techniques with quick, non-telegraphic power via the lessons learned from initially training in sine-wave). Or maybe sine-wave aims to develop power by loosening up or relaxing slightly before snapping into the power technique. But actually applied whilst applying a technique in combat/sparring? Aside from demos, I don't know if anyone can actually do it. It's one thing to state the theory of it, but it's another thing to actually apply it. Dunno...just some rambling thoughts. Sorry :bang:
That would be because you were probably closer to performing proper sine-wave than they were. BTW, I'll have the article by Mr Muleta up soon for all to see, just as soon as my scanner starts working. For those who have the magazine, it's located in Australasian Taekwondo, Volume 14, No 1 (January 2005).
As a TAGB mamber we do ITF pre sine wave, and personally I can't see how it can be used effectively, within patterns it seems to slow everything down, especially combinations so can't see you it could possible be used in sparring. A few times I've seen ITF guys at TAGB comps (generally when they've switched) and their patterns seem to contain alot less power and speed than none sine wave.
I think it is more effective; though I understand what a lot of people are saying about bobbing!! Sine wave's not supposed to be like that. You use your hips and knee spring to get a nice down up down motion. One instructor described to me like waves in the sea
oni_sensei: How ironic that would be if, in fact, I was performing proper sine-wave when I was trying not to do so! I'd never thought of it that way...thanks for that viewpoint. I guess I'd better read-up more on it as it's quite evident that I'm not too knowledgeable about it, at least not beyond the superficial first impression of it that perhaps many other people share as well. That said, I am also looking forward to the article that you'll be posting up soon. Thanks in advance.
Sorry for the wait everybody, here's the entire 5-page article in JPEG format. View the images in the following order: http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1124/sinewave18qo.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8875/sinewave25vm.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/936/sinewave34mg.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7941/sinewave47ol.jpg http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/259/sinewave58jm.jpg
Excellent article. From what I've seen of Sine wave users, the way the article describes many people over exaggerating sine wave and losing any force from any other method seems very common.
www.ukta.com/videogallery.php Check out Grandmaster Rhee Ki Ha breaking the brick note the total absesnce of sine wave, if its so effective why isnt he using it ?
Like Mr Muleta describes, and has taught me personally, sinewave is NOT the be-all and end-all of generation of power. You don't NEED to use sinewave to produce tremendous power, but it can help. Look at that video closer - GM Rhee gets his distance and steps through into the punch, sinking his momentum forward through the brick. The sinewave is not bleedingly obvious, but it is there, it's simply not exaggerated. Even the step itself is short, which in turn, blurs the visual evidence of sinewave even more. Sinewave is simply the natural, unforced motion of the body going with the flow into the technique.
Oni Sensei, thanks very much for the article, it was brill . It made me realise that I actually use sine wave (or saw tooth, lol) in my patterns and linework even though I didn't even know it. Explains a lot about the subtlety (sp?) of it.
Mr Ansow of Rayners Lane Taekwon-Do Academy wrote an interesting article on this very subject www.raynerslanetkd.com articles - patterns - sinewave telling it like it is
