Pattern applications... still not buying it.

I apologize, I meant the Tekkis. Supposedly the Pinans/Heians are all based off of a kata called Channan, not Naihanchi like I said. I only got about 4 hours of sleep so I apologize again for the incorrect information.

 

No worries.

 

Some excellent debates going on here

As a point of interest, I spoke to a Shotokan 6th Dan friend (who is also a 3rd Dan in Shukokai) very recently. He absolutely swears by kata applications (bunkai) and they make up about 40-50% of each lesson he teaches. Incidentally he runs his own private security firm. I asked him if he's ever used kata applications in a real fight and he said 'Never.' So my question to all those who train kata/pattern applications and have been in real fights, is: 'Have you ever used what you've learnt?'

 

I'd like to be able to say "Yes, of course". But the reality is that my real-life combat experience was all done and dusted well before I grew to have a better understanding of kata and its application. Nowadays I spend too much time cossetted in my car to get involved with violence on the street, and I rarely frequent pubs and clubs.

So how do I 'know' that what I do works? Basically because a) I have a resevoir of real-life experiences that have (amongst other things) helped me to identify what I consider the key principles involved in successfully resolving violence.

That said, looking back I can see that I did use some very simple kata applications in real situations, some consciously (kata does involve punches and blocks after all) but interestingly some unconsciously. Several times I found that I had used movements similar to karate blocks not to block or strike, but in grappling situations to release the assailant's grip and temporarily tie up and control his limbs.

Mike

 

Seconded. Though I'm not sure you'd ever get me into a club. I wasn't overly keen on them when in my teens and 20s so can't think of any good reason to go in one now.

However, all the applications that I now teach have been used by me and my students against the very attacks that I've experienced, seen and had others describe under pressure full contact in alive training.

I'd say if he's spending loads of times on applications, and never using them in the situations he finds himself in, then he's training inappropriate applications for him.

 

I must confess I suspected the same!€

Mike

 

I only train something that I'll use in combat. Some moves I only train one side (I'll train other moves on the other side). Life is too short to waste on something that's not important.

 

Erm... so do you train kata/patterns applications then? Or even kata/patterns themselves?

 

No! I don't train form/Kata/pattern (I know more than 40 forms). IMO, Form/Kata/pattern were designed for "teaching" and "learning" only. They were not designed for "training". I only train the drills that I created for my own training purpose.

 

Good on you!

 

There are bad forms (patterns) and there are good forms. A bad form is a form that founder just put things together in such a way that the previous move has nothing to do with the next move (such as a punch to the east followed by a punch to the west). A good form is a form that one can use the 1st move to set up the 2nd move, use the 2nd move to set up the 3rd move, and use ... (such as to use a low kick to set up a high punch, ...).

It's very difficult to find such form that the original designer had "combo" in mind. You may see 1, 2 combo or 1, 2, 3 combo here and there in your form. But it's very hard to find a form that contain a set of good combos. What do you do if you like to use certain combos but they don't exist in your forms? Do you prefer to spend your time to train your own combo? Or do you prefer to spend your time to train the form that you may never use it in combat?

 

@Youknowwho: from a karate POV, that would have to do with how training evolved from individual-based to style-based, since in the old days, if you learned what you could from a system and still weren't happy with it, you changed it and made your own forms with your own combos.

nowadays if you do that you're an egomaniacal ***** who disrespects the efforts of the founders and thinks he's better than everyone even though you actually know nothing

*shrugs*

 

If you always respect the founder, your style will never evolve. The best that you can do is just to be a "copy machine". If you just pass down exactly what you have learned from your teacher, your students can learn directly from your teacher, they don't have to learn from you (that means you have no contributation).

My teacher didn't like the original Taiji system because he believed the leg movement was missing. If my teacher didn't have courage to challenge the taiji founder, His style of Chang Taiji would never been born.

 

For what it's worth, Higaonna Sensei of the IGRKF (International Goju Ryu Karate Federation) is said to train about six hours a day, up to seven days a week, and has been quoted saying kata makes up about 50% of his training. If a guy as awesome as he is thinks kata is worth devoting up to 21 hours or more of training to a week, there might be something to it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD7LH92TDuA"]YouTube- Sensei Higaonna in "Human Weapon"[/ame]

 

I would say how can anyone tell?
What you see in a competative fight ,for example MMA or Muay thai , should resemble fundamentaly the pattern application. People cant move one way to do an application then another to something taught through fighting. If parry,right cross is the application then it should be similar,fundamentaly, to a competative fighters parry right cross even though he has never done applications. There should not be a massive differennce in the 'look'. Its still violent,still fairly messy, still not 'clean'. Thats my view anyhow. And this is where having a fighting ability as a base helps. People just doing pattern applications often look too clean and what they are showing just wont work and you never do see it works except on training partners standing there.. What a surprise!

 

I both agree & disagree. Copies don't work. Think of taking the original & make a copy. Pass the copy along to the next bloke who makes a copy of it & quality of the print slips. Continue making copies of the further copies always results in a less quality image which at some point becomes blurry. However certain things in a MA must be maintained imo, as that what makes them the unique MA that they hope to be. However many things can & should change in the MAs as new techniques & ways to do things are constantly coming on the scene. Not to adopt innovation lives the student in the position of being a less capable fighter. So when it comes to the actual SD focus of a MA, much can & should imo expand & evolve

 

my 2 cents. you shouldn't give copies for people to copy. you should give templates which contain the fundamental bits, then the student must build up the parts that are blank

 

The problem I have with this is that people who've been training for short amounts of time compared to their instructor think they know the technique better than the person who taught it to them. If you've been practiicing Taekwondo for 10 years, you are still a baby. You might know how to do basics well, but you are in no position to challenge established instructors as far as making a technique or system better.
My instructor has been practicing TKD for 50+ years, and still defers to Mr. Um of Chung Do Kwan. Would never think to challenge him or his teachings.

 

What if the student holds a Masters degree in Kinesiology of Exercise and knows a better way (from a biomechanical point of view) to do a technique? Would you still hold to the same argument?

 

Whether your change is "evolution" or "water down", only history can tell.