I`m a TKD'er and I've always felt its not really that reasonable. For a start, early TKd wanted to get lots of BB's and high grades, so (early promotions aside) they envoked a system which knocks years off high dan grades time by using the 'grade you in' rather than the 'grade you want' as the time standard.. so kup years aside, by 4th dan you already have 4 years less experience at BB than say, a Karate 4th dan! The second point is that these levels were refered to as 'minimums'.. but in many cases, they are used as the 'standard' time in grade. If you look at many high ranking TKD folks at BB levels, you will see virtually every grading date based on 'the minimums' which then makes it become 'standard' or 'normal'. Stuart Ps. in my school we use the 'grade your going for' rule as the 'minimums' and even then, most do not manage it in that time. AFAIA KKW use 'Master' at 4th Dan (7th dan in ITF).. in ITF its 'Expert' (4th-6th dan and/or International instructor if in the ITF itself). Stuart
Dammit, who cares? I'm gonna be cocky here for a moment, but I'm pretty good at taekwondo, and I'm a pretty fantastic teacher; and not just conveying technical information either, but the whole load. I've been training since 2000 too, and no one minds, except the students who end up having to spar mine.
I've never heard this before (in the US or Korea). I have heard those terms in Korean but not translated as such. I could be wrong, but I have never heard it, in Korea or the US. I'd love to know more (nowhere on the Kukkiwon are the words "Master" or "Grandmaster" used (except in the foreign news section. I haven't kept up with uniform changes (we wear plain white pullover v-necks until 1st dan and then add the black collar) and haven't heard these terms used (aside from maybe Adida's brand names for uniforms). I didn't see anything on uniforms on the Kukkiwon site describing this - sounds like a school, regional or brand name thing. Do you know where I'd get more info on this? I agree with this - this has been my experience outside of Korea for the most part
Ok, so after more reading, I guess my "25 years to 4th dan" was a little high. But still, would you want to go to "Rexkwondo" for 10 years only to find out that while you're a 15th dan super-ninja-grandmaster at that school, what you really know amounts to what your instructor learned from playing Streetfighter in the arcade and watching "Walker, Texas Ranger" But anyway, as I won't be going to a school with a 12 year 4th dan, the point is moot. If I do end up doing TKD, I'll do my best to have fun and not get hung up on belt colors and other things that I don't really have any experience with. As long as the instructor can do whatever he is teaching, then I guess that should be good enough for me. I'm not interested in competing or being able to brag about my eventual rank, I just want to have fun and get off the couch.
Uh-oh, now you have me questioning my own memory. I would go and look but when we packed up and moved the school (6 months ago), everything got packed. The last times we tested for KKW rank, which was over 5 years ago, we got the "new" certificates and, if I remember correctly, my 4th dan had a silver seal and my instructor's 5th dan had a gold seal. Now don't quote me on this because the colors may be reversed and I may be thinking of his 6th dan certificate instead. (Yes, I have "time in grade for 5th, and have tested, but haven't applied for the certificate yet). I did an online search to see if I could bolster my memory but all I found were LOTS of pages talking about all sorts of various changes and lots of people getting different ones. To the best of my memory,and without being able to check at the moment, I believe that the seal colors on my 4th and my instructor's 5th dan certificates were different.
FIRST & FOREMOST I do not believe there is any measure than can be fairly compared from 1 MA to another. In fact it is often difficult to cross compare within or between different styles or factions of a MA. Standards, requirements & how they are enforced are just impossible to evaluate. The general public thinks that a BB is a BIG deal. For some MAists it may. For other MAists it is only the beginning, where a student has grasped the basics. So how can you compare? Add to the mix the tremendous rivalry & competition for business between schools & styles & you only have more of a mess. So I offer the sole criteria that may be able to give us some insight with a comparison. That to me & for me is simply time training. Forget ranks, as they mean little today as they are not the same structure between styles or Arts. Nor have them been reliably applied & suffer terribly from the commercial money making side of a MA business. I say if you train 10 years & I train 10 years, we should be somewhere on the same level, especially if we train hard & have approximate talent. IF ALL else is even between us & you excel & I stink, I am probably at a McDojo/jang. To me that is the only way & it doesn't matter if you are a 4th Dan after 10 years & I am only a 1st Dan. You excel & I was wasting my time or was being misled, cheated etc. by my school. Why are we so hung up on rank?
There is a very strict requirement in the ITF that the title Master is reserved for 7th-9th Dan. GM is reserved for 9th Dan & up until 1997 there was only 1 in the ITF, Gen. Choi. However when he started to finally promote his students to 9th Dan, the tradition of only the head of the system was a GM changed in the ITF. Gen. Choi was formerly referred to as "Founder" & 9th Dans as GM.
In the RoK TKD is a sport, mostly confined to children or elite players that are supported, groomed to be competitive players or instructors on the world stage. The reason that some there get a I Dan BB in a year is because it is a kid's activity AND they place little emphasis on a I Dan! The ITF has 3 programs that determine when you will test for BB 1st Dan. It depends on HOURS trained & whether or not you grasp the basics. It is virtually unheard of anyone earning a BB in a year, as it requires training 4 hours a day for 6 days a week. Most do it in 3+ years (3-5) as training times like the above are simply not readily available or practical for most people's schedule. You give me an average person who will sweat in training 4 hours daily for 6 days out of the week & I can assure you I can produce a good BB. I am not sure what age you consider young, but to be an ITF International Instructor you should be 21 years old & a 4th Dan with the ITF, having successfully completed a certified ITF International Instructors Course. I personally think the age should be raised to 25. Maturity is something that only comes with the gaining of experience over the passage of time.
I think it is both correct & incorrect. It really is about semantics & translations. In English we think of a master as someone who has mastered something. So since we see the caliber of many poor BBs we laugh when we think of them as having mastered their Art, as they still can't seem to tie the belt right!
I believe it's somewhere in the Kukkiwon textbook, however I doubt I'm going to have much of a chance to look this weekend and then I'm preparing then travelling to Korea. If no one else has posted a reference before I get back in two weeks, then I'll have a look. This is a WTF thing, rather than a Kukkiwon thing. However, the Kukkiwon are also designing a new "Y-Neck" dobok. The original survey the Kukkiwon sent out to KMS members has been taken down now, but there's a mirror of the image at http://themartialway.com/2012/05/03/new-kukkiwonwtf-y-neck-dobok-pictures-and-survey-5-2/ I can't remember where I originally got this (I believe a WTF email), but here's a link to the PDF they sent round about the new uniforms: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/478290/New 2011 Poomsae doboks and ranks.pdf
I didn't think the "new" certificates came in until 2010? There certainly was an announcement with a prototype certificate image released in 2010. Maybe you're talking about an older version. I can say that my 5th Dan certificate doesn't have a gold seal on it. It has a silver seal. Not the world's best picture (you can't really tell if it's silver or gold), but you can see my certificate at - http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyjeffries/5686833770/in/set-72157626067693481 The seal is definitely the same colour as my student's 2nd Dan one. As I said though, maybe it's changed since I got my 5th Dan. That said, there USED to be a difference at 5th Dan level, before then the certificates were white with printed signatures, at 5th Dan they turned in to traditional Korean paper (yellowish) and were hand-signed. This has changed now I believe.
I have to say that I really like them. I also have to chime in that 1 design, the Y neck looks like it is getting closer to the ITF style Dobok. Thanks for posting them & have a great trip! Is it your 1st time to Korea?
I didn't see anthing on the Kukkiwon site (noted previously) and I just took a look through my (old, out dated) Taekwondo Textbook by Kim Jeong-Rok (Seolim Publishing:1994) and checked for any mention of "master" or "grandmaster". There is only one mention of "Master", and its in the Korean-English section, where it defines "Kwan Jang Nim" as President/Master It lists "Sabeom-nim" as "Instructor", some others as well as "Yudanja" as "Black belt holder". Specific terms for ranks are NOT mentioned anywhere in the tetxbook, not even on the sample test application sheets or anything. In the Korean sections (the ages have two columns - one in English and one in Korean), no where are there specific terms used for ranks... I see Test Official (Shim Sa Ja) and then everyone else is referred to by dan rank, e.g. 6 dan. Although my book is old, it seems to match up pretty well with the Kukkiwon site. My experience in Korea (granted, 10 years ago now), I very rarely heard any titles used for ranks, aside from Sabeom and Kwan Jang and if rank was mentioned at all, it simply had a number, not a title. Great link - thanks. I haven't seen anyone wearing them yet. Do you know if people will be adopting that crazy new set of belt indicators as well? I haven't seen any around yet nor even ads to buy them. The pdf is from 2011 - I don't see any for sale on Daedo or Moosoolsa... any word on when they are expected to come out? Editted by Thomas - I spoke too soon. I see that Kicksport has them listed as "WTF Poomsae Uniforms" (http://www.kicksport.com/shop/Poomsae-Uniforms/) and there was a British TKD annoucement that as of October 2012, there were required for Poomsae competitions (http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/usrdata/File/news/BTCB News 2012/BT_Poomsae_Announcement.pdf) with a longer time factored in for color belts. In the photo, though, I don't see the new belt designs yet. You are right on the use of titles with the uniforms - I see "Sabeom - Master 1-3 dan", "Jido Sabeom - Instructor Master 4-6 dan", and "Tae Sa Beom - Grandmaster 7-9 dan". It is indeed a "WTF thing" Now, to be a bit pedantic. The WTF does not issue any rank nor certificates - all of that comes from the Kukkiwon. So, since the Kukkiwon, the actual group that issues rank, does not seem to attach any specific titles to the rank, I am going to stick with my orginal assertion. If WTF TKDists wish to follow the recommendations of theWTF and use those titles, that's up to them, but it won't be on their rank certificates or listed anywhere in the Kukkiwon, just their dan rank. Anyway, I'm splitting hairs here - have fun in Korea!
Yep - I must be. The photos you posted are very different from the type I have. Mine looks like the older style ones with a big foil seal on it (silver if I recall). I recieved my 4th dan in 2007. I think we're comparing different versions and mine is the old verson. In a few months, when I get my new shiny 5th dan one, I'll try to revisit this thread and compare!
I would like to be a bit pedantic here if I may. I only looked at it quickly, but it seemed to in 1 place define the colors of TKD. But then later on they had a whole bunch of colors for the belts that didn't correspond to the meaning of the colors, right? Or did I miss it? When I look at all of this & put it together with other things I have hear or read, it seems like more evidence of the future split between the WTF & KKW. I mean different uniforms, belts, titles, membership systems & it adds up to me a split indeed. But what will become of the KKW? To me the more important world body & brand name would be the WTF, right?
It looked like the first thing with the colours was just the colors used in the WTF logo, and thus what will be on the logo on the uniform, not the belt colours.
I don't know. The Kukkiwon has been the one to issue rank and keep track of the rank holders and such. If they split, what happens to rank.. oh wait, I can see it now - "For a limited time, you may transfer your Kukkiwon rank to WTF rank for a minimal fee ($100 per dank rank - no skipping allowed and all previous ranks must be payed for too - submit paperwork, check, and two photos to...)". I can't see Republic of Korea wanting to split them. Right now it's a nice set up - Kukkiwon HQ in Korea collecting money from all over the world (and giving a cut to the Gov't, I am sure) all in one place. Domestically they get the money from the KTA and world-wide from WTF. Why would they allow it to split?
These are good questions & points you raise, which I have no real answers for. I can tell you that in the old days it was all one, even though there were 3 separate orgs on paper. That was great for coordination, but bad for corruption. Now they have been separate for around 10 years & that has led to big problems of infighting & coordination. Some govt imposed measures have been put in place to help out, but I get the sense that some want to go back to coordination, but only within the WTF. For example the WTF is the IOC ISF. So they are a big deal worldwide, with 202 members & growing. I think they have more than the UN does! They have already started their regional training centres & membership system. Next comes issuing their own BB certs. They can always establish a regional training centre in SK or use the new academy at the TKD which opens in 2013. So we shall see.
Well, as was mentioned in the links I provided, the information comes from, among other places, the Kukkiwon Instructors Course. The terms Master and Grand Master are, apparently, how the KKW want yudanja and kodanja translated into English. The WTF uniform issue is simply a reflection of the terms that the Kukkiwon uses. I remember being pretty surprised when I first saw that 1st-3rd dan uniforms were for "Masters," but that was before I read the thread on MT I linked to. FWIW, you can call anyone anything you want, as far as I'm concerned. The ITF has their titles and the KKW has theirs. You can use them or not as you see fit. Pax, Chris
