Part of taekwondo problem?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by S&CMAN, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    So you would say, unless one follows Gen Choi's system to the letter, then they are not doing it anymore? In that case, I would say nearly 99% of the ITF arnt doing Gen Choi's system anymore!!!

    Do you follow Gen Chois system to the letter btw? Do your students not do any free-sparring until 4th kup out of interest?

    So you feel that ITf clubs who dont use Jnr BB's arnt doing ch'ang Hon TKD anymore?

  2. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Same here. I have a BB panel (including an ITF Master) and I make up exactly 1/5 of that panel.. so can easily get over-ridden as it majority rules!

    Same... I know of other clubs that value their instructors judgement against all else and see the 'instructor knows them best' thing.. I can see the POV.. but its also a way for unscrupulous instructors to be less than impartial, shall we say! I try to strike a balance... I dont just have anyone on my panel... but people I myself hold in the highest regards, irrespective of their actual grade or how well they are known etc.... and their word is final, in all cases!

  3. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    How many clubs (my own included, though I'm always moving things) do any "free sparring" as defined by the general?

    There are no tournament opportunities for it, not medals to be won, so I think most do tournament sparring and call it "free."

  4. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    This is why I asked... as, according to ChrisSpillerTKD if you dont follow the Generals word on belts, your not doing Ch'ang Hon TKD and should 'admit that'! And AFAIA the Generals 'Instructions' are 'free Sparring' at Blue Belt (4th Kup) therefore, clubs that don't follow that rule, arnt doing 'Ch'ang Hon TKD' either!

    I dont say I agree with that, Im just questioning the premise!

  5. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    And yet maybe the tester coming in didn't think they were ready and failed them.

    It's not a question of knowing the person coming in, though. It's a question of who is testing the students. If it's the outside tester then it falls on him. If it's a panel it falls on all of them.

    Part of the original point was that students would be more likely to quit if they failed their test and so it would be better to bring in an outside tester so the instructor wouldn't be tempted to pass them when they weren't ready. But above you said the students wouldn't be submitted to test if the instructor didn't think they were ready in the first place. So if the tester knows they're ready to test why would they fail (since as you point out people in the same organization shold have the same standard)?

    Interestingly, my instructors have told me on more than one occasion that their old Korean instructor who would come in to test students from outside passed some of the students who tested in front of him when they were clearly not ready. My instructors just assumed he'd see that and fail them. When they asked why he didn't he told them, "If they weren't ready you shouldn't have let them test." So I am not sure how well an outside tester would be to act as a means of quality control anymore than an immediate instructor would.

    From school to school? Sure. From organzation to organization? Most definitely. I've seen more variation across organizations than across schools, though.

    That being said, I think you're always going to have a variation of standards within organizations regardless of whether you have instructors test their students or outside testers do so.

    Well, I don't know how that would help the community grow but it can certainly give people a bigger view on things, sure.


  6. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Valued Member

    Not necessarily. Don't get so defensive, Stuart. I do think, however, that when someone clearly deviates from what Gen. Choi stated then they should be up front about it. As I said originally, "They should just be up front that they don't follow all of Gen. Choi's style."

    Well, that's your own opinion :) I have no way of really judging the figures in any meaningful way.

    I do my best. I'm sure there are many things I don't do the way he wanted it done. But then again, over the years, I have gotten closer to what my understanding of what he wanted is.

    Nah, but they are contributing to confusion about what a black belt means, especially when issued to a child, like the KKW folks who don't issue poom belts to their juniors. I should've been more careful with what I typed but some of your posts are pedantic at times, Stuart. And coming from me that's pretty bad ;)


  7. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    Earlier today, PASmith posted something along the lines of 'if a 9 or 10 year old can pass your Black Belt test, your test is too easy(while this may not be an exact quote, it's got the gist of it). I have to say that I really think you underestimate what kids are capable of.

    Though our association comes from a traditional base of WTF TKD, over the years we have evolved into a MMA system, so I am speaking about our black belt tests and their requirements and not of any other org. or system. Even our Jr. Black Belts have to go through a minimum of 16 weeks of extensive training like an elite athlete where they are eating 5-6 meals a day, doing resistance training, cardio, sparring both stand up and ground fighting, grappling, working stick and knife work, ect. On the physical conditioning for their test, they have a five mile run (untimed, but must keep a solid pace and can not stop), a two mile timed run (adult males must complete in under 15 minutes, women in under 16 and kids under 15 in 17 minutes). They need to be able to do a minimum of 3x (often 6x) of 50 push ups per minute, 3x of 50 sit ups per minute and 3x of 25 burpees. In addition they have bear crawls, wheel barrels, fireman's carries, ect. Most of this is after doing their technical portion of their exam (the five mile run is prior to the technical, the two mile is the last part of the exam) which includes TKD forms, basics and kicking combos, FMA stick and knife work, No-Gi Submission Grappling (technical and rolling), Sparring (boxing, kickboxing and MMA), technical drills on MMA ground fighting, ect. So they are pretty tired coming into it.

    All candidates keep a training and nutrition journal which is reviewed weekly by the instructors. Besides, if they are not keeping up the nutrition and training, when you are pushing yourself like this, your body breaks down. We have candidates each year that try to cut corners and they just can't handle the demands that this puts on them. So they either step it up or step out. There are not many kids that can handle this, honestly there aren't a lot of adults who can handle this, but this is how we test for our black belts (Jr. or dan). For 4th degree and up, instead of being 16 weeks, it's 18-24 months of living that type of training and nutrition. This is the shape that my wife came in for her recent 5th degree test and she is in her mid-forties. This is the shape I came in for my 7th degree test in my (arg!) late forties. And the shape one of my senior students came in for his 5th degree test in May doing just bodyweight resistance exercises rather than weight training. He's 34.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    But what you fail to realize is that Muslims do not have a problem with the Bible, both Old & New Testaments BECAUSE their G-d sent it! They do not have a problem with what is written, as they know it is their G-d's word. Their trouble is that they feel that Jews & Christians have deviated.
    Of course Jews & Muslims do not think Jesus was the Son. I already said that
  9. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    This is a great point. In the ITF you are a Master at 7th Dan, as the syllabus of physical techniques & requirements stop with 6th Dan!

    Yes I read that as well. While I think it is strange, I see no problem with whatever they think is best for their system
  10. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Gen Choi was the honorary head of the CDK, but they didn't merge. He used CDK instructors to teach for him in the military. There are old photos with youngsters in them. I don't about kid (under 13) or children (under 13) BBs, but I do believe that GM CK Choi was a teen when he joined the 1st civilian ODK.
    Then I stated that when TAE SOO DO went into the Korean National Sports Festival in the early 1960s, it spread to the school system so I am sure that kids were involved.
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Sorry but to me, since Gen. Choi's focus was on developing moral character in his TKD students & his goal of his TKD was to build a more peaceful world, anyone who does not share & emphasize this basic premise is not really following his system IMHO, which is probably the majority of ITFers!

    That is right from what I see as well!
    Then to top it off, the ITF-V has upped the age to 18 & makes it mandatory that they wear a Jr. BB with a white stripe down the middle. (This was strictly enforced at their combined WCs in New Zealand in the Jr. section). But they dropped the minimum age for 2nd Dan that was at 14.5.
    So they no longer use age 13. They no longer use a Jr. BB that is half white & half black. The disregard Gen Choi's teaching that a Jr. BB is only eligible for 1st Dan.
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Quote: If that is the case... all those ITF clubs that have under 13's not wearing Jnr BB's arnt doing Ch'ang Hon/ITF either.. and thats about 99% of them from what Ive seen! Stuart

    That is correct as I see it as well. Although in SK they seem fairly common. I believe Dr. Kim Un Yong introduced the Poom belt & that he wrote it comes from the Korean civilian service tradition. I forget the rest. Maybe an informed WTFer can expand on this........
  13. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Why not?
    I think an instructor is the one who knows the student best, don't you.
  14. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    A lack of integrity in testing by anyone should not be tolerated. Too bad most tests are not real tests. But that is a different issue, right?
    I for one think that if you want good students with a high standard, no one should pass the test. They all we have faults, mistakes, shortcomings etc. Simply make your gradings not pass or fail, but an evaluation where you (candidate testing) will be given a list of areas that still need work.
    Nothing wrong with having outsiders come in to test your students or help out. But how many are going to want to come in & fail people? If you can't be honest when testing your own students, maybe you shouldn't be teaching. You are cheating your students if you don't hold them back so they can work on their weak areas. If you need money, maybe you should get a job :D
  15. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    To me & IMO a pre-test is a sign that you are afraid to fail students. A test is not a test unless you can fail
  16. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Just to be clear, in the ITF, only a certified International Instructor can test students & only up to II Dan (2nd degree) for a 4th Dan II or up to 3rd Dan for a 6th Dan II.
    To be an II, one must be at least a 4th Dan, successfully complete an ITF IIC & get a serial numbered II cert from the ITF. (This is not the ITF Training cert that you get when you complete the course). You can then issue gup certs in your own name, but BB certs must be issued through the ITF. IV Dan & above promotions are done through the ITF Promotion Committee.

    Anyone can be an instructor, as all you need is students to instruct. The ITF has domestic or national instructors that are under 4th Dan & that are qualified by the NGB. Any II can appoint asst instructors from the ranks of 1-3 degree ITF BBs.
  17. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I try to!
    Yes I do not encourage free sparring until 4th gup blue belt. But remember that free sparring according to Gen. Choi is essentially open combat, where both opponents are "FREE" to use any & all available means (within obvious safety concerns).
    Please do not mistake free sparring with tournament match rules sparring.
  18. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I believe you & think this is an honorable approach.
    Are the results announced after the test concludes? If so, who makes the announcement? If the results are not given out right after the test concludes, when are they & what is that process like?
  19. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    I would respectfully suggest you let them "go at it" & I think you will be surprised how much they like it & want to do it more. I know that Mr. Anslow's guys like it & we never have any serious injuries.
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Kwan Jang. Great post and your BB gradings seem very comprehensive. Far more than I could do to be honest. But this line struck me...

    Again...that's exactly my point. Not many kids can handle it but some can. That's fine. That means the kids that do it REALLY earnt it and are on another level.
    I'd still have reservations about child black belts because you can't go in depth with them on certain aspects of dealing with violence that I feel are important (aggression, swearing and sexual crime are the main ones) but if your requirements are hard and a kid can match it then fair play.
    My main gripe is that most BB gradings aren't even half as strenuous as what you've described Kwan. So it's no wonder kids can routinely pass the gradings.

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