Discussion in 'Boxing' started by Sandninjer, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Valued Member

    I haven't seen a thread up on this yet, unless I missed it. I just watched the replay last night on HBO since I was out of the country when it was happening live.

    What are your thoughts? Here are some things I noticed:

    - Pacquiao was surprisingly unafraid to get hit considering how he went out last time.
    - Pacquiao seemed far more "hittable" than ever before. Not sure how I feel about his new style... although, I did enjoy him dancing in circles around Rios every now and then.
    - Pacquiao can still take heavy hits.
    - Rios is naturally huge, and a tank.
    - Rios performed better than I thought he would (even though he was convincingly dominated in every round...and I expected him to get KO'd fast).
    - Rios' stock somewhat grew... rather, he at least made a B-class fighter presence for himself in the welter division.
    - Pacquiao was a better fighter (and just as fun to watch) when he was a bit more cautious. I noticed a lot of instances where he'd occasionally stand up straight leaving him off balance, and is lucky Rios never capitalized on that.
    - If aliens ever want to destroy humans for being evil, they'll spare us when they meet Pacquiao.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  2. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    The fight certainly proved Manny is far from done – you are correct, Rios is a tank – though even when comparing this fight with the Marquez bout (the one from last year) Pac didn’t seem as quick.

    You’ve some excellent points in your post but I have to part ways with you in your comment regarding Pacquiao seeming to throw caution to the wind (“Pacquiao was a better fighter (and just as fun to watch) when he was a bit more cautious…”) I thought Pac a more cautious fighter this time ‘round. I think in times past he (Pac) would have gone for (successfully) a finish.

    What did I get from the fight?

    Manuel Pacquiao still a top World Class fighter and I’ve become a fan of Brandon Rios.

    I thought Macau an interesting venue for the fight. I recall Macau the choice for the Rich Franklin/Cung Le UFC fight, as well.

    Macau is going to be the next Las Vegas – a looney one, at that. I went by there many years ago as the wife is originally from a bordering Province. It had a notorious reputation at the time. Now its on its way to $$$, lots of opportunity for the…ahh…entrepreneur…shall we say.
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    How do you think this Manny will do against Floyd?
  4. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Floyd will retire undefeated, whoever he fights next.

    Too good, too smart and one of a kind.
  5. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    That's surprisingly the general consensus of opinion around here (meself included) - surprising in that its such a rarity. Rare in that the ratio of wisdom to ego is usually inversely proportional to their rank and status.

    He will retire sooner than later, I think. Its difficult to keep all of those pins in the air for long and he is smart enough to know that.
  6. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Valued Member

    Interesting perspective on Pac. His stamina surprised me. I knew he had a lot of stamina before but he took almost no breaks through all 12 rounds. He kept up the pressure about 99% of the time. Perhaps the reason you feel he was more cautious this time was because he had to back up often? Rios was unstoppable. He kept driving forward and Pacquiao couldn't do much to stop him except to slow him down.

    And yeah Macau was an interesting choice indeed. I'd like for venues around other parts of the world to become just as popular as the MGM as well.

    I think he'll give Floyd issues, but I don't see a KO or TKO from either end. I think Floyd would capitalize on Manny's habit of leaving his guard down often, especially right after coming out of his flurries as he likes to watch his opponent's reaction after backing off. After seeing Floyd being more aggressive than ever in his last fight against Canelo, I don't think there's any boxer alive that can overcome that kind of perfection.

    Floyd is too fast, too precise, too smart. And I'm a Pacquiao fan.
  7. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    I am wondering about all this hype there is around Floyd's name these days..
    Especially after his last match, I even saw some comments here, in the boxing forum, proclaiming him the best boxer in the history.

    My question is : Is Floyd a better boxer than he was 3 or 5 years ago?
    I mean, he wasn't even considered the pound for pound king before 2012 and now he suddenly became the best fighter ever?
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  8. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I think, in my opinion at least (so take this for what it's worth), Floyd at any point from the last five years onward is the best light-welterweight of his generation. Certainly the best since Sugar Ray Leonard or Tommy Hearns, and at this point he is showing greater skill than either of them did in their prime. Floyd is so good that the only fighter he can really be compared against is himself.
  9. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    He signed a six fight deal which he I believe he intends to honor. He is smart, he is one of a kind, and I'm willing to bet his last fight and probably biggest pay day ever could potentially land on the last fight of his career, against Manny. :p
  10. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    I hear you, but boxing historians in the other hand, have a different opinion.
    I read from times to times articles from people with good grasp of boxing's history, like Mike Silver, who don't rate Mayweather even nearly as high as the boxers you mentioned or even less famous champions of those days like Jose Napoles and Emile Griffith.
    That's something that makes me think twice about Floyd.

    And in the last 5 years how many of his opponents were first class fighters?
    Were Canelo, Ortiz and Guerrero first class competitors?
    Is Mayweather really that good or he has done a great marketing job?
    All I am saying is, that just because he beat Alvarez and Guerrero in such a spectacular way, people shouldn't call him GOAT. It just doesn't make sense.
  11. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Valued Member

    I'm a but surprised you haven't been able to pick up on his level of skill. It's not about hype or marketing strategies. The proof is in the pudding. If you learn to watch boxing matches technically instead of getting swayed by commentators, the crowd, public opinion or whatever else is said outside of the ring, then you would come to this same conclusion.

    I'm not a Mayweather fan. None of his marketing strategies have ever affected me. I was the guy who was always fighting to prove Manny would destroy Floyd. I am, however, completely unbiased when it comes to analyzing one boxer's skill over another. I don't support people I don't like, and I stop supporting fighters who are toying around (like Amir Khan, my native country's only professional boxer ever). With that said, I have always supported Manny and still do. After carefully watching Floyd fight, he has thoroughly convinced me he is the greatest boxer today.

    A few years ago I agree that he dodged Manny in his prime when he should have fought him. I agree Floyd could have fought a couple better fighters but just because a fight should happen doesn't mean that a deal can or will be made. It's a business and anything can happen from money to rules to venues and etc.

    Floyd dominated Arturo Gatti. He had a tough time against Jose Luis Castillo but still pulled off a win. Yes he shouldn't have fought Ortiz or Guerrero, but he did annihilate Cotto (I was rooting for Cotto). Canelo is a great fighter, even moreso considering his young age. I thought that was a great choice of a fight for Floyd and it made a lot of sense. So tell me, who else is left for Floyd to fight?

    Austin Trout, Danny Garcia, Amir Khan, Tim Bradley, Manny Pacquiao.

    Of them all, Trout and Garcia have virtually little to no following. Floyd's a smart businessman. It's about money at the end of the day. No one wants to end up like Ali or Roach when they retire. Khan is the weakest of them all but would surprisingly offer a huge plus in profit. As for Bradley and Pacquiao, if a fight can be made with either one of them, then you can bet that Floyd will end up fighting both since they're both under Bob Arum. True or not, politics between Floyd and Arum are the reason why the fight was never made before with Pac.

    All in all, Floyd is only fighting people who can raise a big paycheck. Some of them happen to be great fighters, some don't. I don't like Floyd's character but I do like that he is real about how he is and what he says. And he says that no one should have to kill themselves in the ring to please fans, that boxing is still a sport and a job for professional boxers to provide for their families.

    Whether you agree or disagree, Floyd has a skill level unseen in a long time. I would be willing to argue that Pacquiao could still beat Floyd in his prime when he was knocking people out left and right (around the DLH and Hatton days), but not today.

    This isn't a few years ago where we were all still discussing the same argument you posed. In fact, I don't see that argument around anymore at all and am kinda surprised it was brought up again. We all asked for Floyd to prove himself and he did just that. He convinced a lot of naysayers including a lot of professional boxing critics.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  12. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    manny looked good .... good against a guy who was outboxed against Alvarado who is an OK boxer at best... he also just got demolished against Provodnikov who was easily outboxed by Bradley ... when Tim was being smart and just boxing and moving. The fight went how I expected in the sense that manny looks good against straight ahead fighters who cannot counterpunch well.

    manny keeps his head protected in the high guard, but leaves the solar plexus wide open to be hit and Floyd likes to jab and throw the straight right hand right down the middle. manny poses pretty much no issues to Floyd except for being a southpaw and speed and Floyd can adjust to both. manny suddenly doesn't have the same power either. How long would Rios have lasted back when he beat Hatton or Cotto? Look at cheato's broken eye socket and entire face. Now manny IMO did have a genuine religious experience and I think he's a better man for it. I also believe that he lost his power because he may have realized that IF he was using something he shouldn't have been, he didn't want to live a lie anymore. I'm sorry but the punch is pretty much always the last thing to go and manny showed no signs of even buzzing Rios during that fight.

    Floyd takes him apart and completely embarrasses him, just like he was ready to back in 09 when he had his papers signed and manny backed out because of random testing and testing cut-off dates.
  13. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Alvarez many were picking to beat Floyd, or at least give him a hard time. Mike Silver is another guy with an opinion and an incorrect one IMO at that.
    Look at manny's opponents in the last 5 years. Hatton, who Floyd had already KO'd. Cotto, who had to fight at 145 for some odd reason. Mosley, who manny initially wanted a catchweight of 142 after he destroyed cheato and only after Floyd fought and beat him did manny actually fight him. cheato, who Mosley beat up and stopped and was damaged goods after that fight and STILL had a catchweight that was 4 lbs lower. Clottey, who is quoted as saying "I lost because I had to" in an interview. Marquez who outboxed him in the third fight and then KO'd him in the 4th and Bradley (who didn't win the fight), but manny couldn't put away. Oh, and let's not forget the DLH at welterweight who had not fought there for over a decade and had to try to rehydrate by fluid injections and looked like a walking corpse.

    If you want to pick resumes apart, I can do this all day long.
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2013
  14. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    By the way, also remember that when there was the possibility of Cotto and manny fighting again... a catchweight, yet again was offered of 148 lbs an Cotto has been a 154 lb fighter for a while now. Even cheato got 150... why the need to drain these guys down so low?
  15. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member


    I didn't say that Mayweather isn't currently the best in the world or a great boxer. He is! Who could say otherwise?
    I enjoy his fights as much as everyone.

    But I think that the fact that he is by far the best right now might have blown him out of proportion. It's a possibility that I wanted to bring up to the discussion and hear everyone's thoughts.

    He is just as good as he was 3 years ago but now you hear fans talking about him a lot more passionately and boldly compare to then.
    You for example, after his match with Canelo said that he might be the best of all time, certainly the best in decades.

    And I ask you personally. Is fighting Canelo, a boxer that many critics thought as a product of careful marketing by Goldenboy Productions (and that before he even fights Mayweather), and a mediocre fighter that has already reached his potential, enough to make such a comment?

    Not that I blame you, but that's exactly my point about good marketing.
    Canelo was built to look like a real challenger and when he lost like that and Mayweather gave that kind of skill display it's difficult to avoid comments like that.
    You see Floyd fight Guerrero and Canelo in success and in contrast to them he looks like God on earth.

    @saved in blood
    I am not a manny fan. I have seen you posting these stuff about Manny in the forum many times and they all make sense to me.
    From how he fought drained fighters to his current suspicious loss of power.
    As for Mike Silver, he is human, so he might be incorrect or biased, but his opinion is an informed one, so it's logical to pay attention to it.
    He is one of the most renowed boxing historians and the writer of "The Arc of Boxing".
    And siince I spoke too much about him here a couple of links where he is talking about manny and floyd
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  16. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    There are two ways one could have viewed the bout.

    The first view requires one to be completely objective when they watch the fight, taking no consideration that Manny has been KO'd. No "lets wait and see what he does now"; with all of these expectations in the back of your head - pro or con. All his fights are strung together in a single, seamless video, in order; the only exception being you mentally edit out the last moments of the fight he had last year - the KO. And with editing out the KO, theoretically, you remove any expectations/beliefs as to the effects the KO are having on Manny as you watch the fight.

    And there, you are set to watch Pacquiao-Rios with a relatively objective viewpoint. :D

    The second way takes in to consideration that Pacquiao has had back-to-back losses (first in his career) and the last loss resulted from a pretty devastating KO by Marquez (also a first). There'd been a lot of doubt regarding Manny's career - which was justifiable because sometimes a KO signals a slide that is not fun to watch.

    Aside from being susceptible to a knock-out from a good gust o wind, a fighter who receives a bad KO relatively late in their career can also get a type of ring rigour mortis - outwardly seen as overcautious, more hesitant to take advantage of opprotunities if those opprotunities come with a potentially hefty price-tag. They are still potent, haven't lost their speed, reflexes - all those skills put into muscle memory from years and years of dedicated training.

    But something's missing.

    They seem to grind out decisions where their bouts used to be fun to watch - never knew what they were gonna do. Not anymore...

    You look back on their career at some point and say they "were never the same after that fight".

    That was what I was reading into it.

    I saw Manny's 'inability' to finish a fighter he'd been giving a good hiding to for all 12 rounds under the light of my own pre-determined expectations, which were really cemented when I heard that Manny's trainer had said in an interview that Pacquiao 'let Rios off the hook' to paraphrase.

    Very nice of him, it was.

    So, I saw everything you did; the stamina - agree, ring control/pressure - agree, speed-agree, a younger, heavy-handed and determined opponent - agree.

    I also saw a marked hand-speed differeintial between the two fighters; which allowed Manny advantageous opprotunity at little cost. That opprotunity was taken again and again.

    Paradoxically, Manny didn't finish Rios.

    It met expectations of a World Class fighter who still has all the skills he had previous to his KO and who is also unable to finish an opponent that one could see him finishing prior to the KO, or so I thought.

    That is
    That is until I came across a post by someone here:
    "The punches are the last to go"

    Had never heard it before, but it rings true.

    I'm certain, even in his deteriorated condition at the end, if one managed to push the right button, M. Ali could still deliver a punch that wouldn't be noticiably different than the ones he threw in '72.

    Anyroads, rings true enough.

    Pacquiao backed off the last round, at some point. It the reasons why he backed off - that's where the mileage varies.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  17. Heikki Mustola

    Heikki Mustola Valued Member

    Rios said before the fight that Manny has old man legs, but I was surprised how good and fast he looked. Still took some shots some other elite fighters would've not taken, but I admit, I was pretty damn impressed (and nervous!)

    Glad he won, would like to see Pacman vs Bradley rematch. Of course, I would also love to see Pacquiao vs Mayweather but I dont think its ever gonna happen
  18. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Nope, bob arum will ALWAYS find a way why he and Floyd cannot work together... that is not taking away from the fact Floyd also hates arum, so it goes both ways.

    I do not have the link, but there was an article I read a long time ago where arum almost admits without realizing it that he hasn't put manny in with Floyd all this time on his own.

    Manny should have manned up to arum and told him, look, this is the fight I want, you make it happen or i'll simply buy out my contract with you like Oscar and Floyd both did. Floyd got out of his for 250k and made 41.5 million without any ppv money. Manny supposedly pulled in 26 mil against Rios... BUT that's until you factor in that arum supposedly gets 30% of manny's purse in each fight. Floyd even got the paperwork and posted it on twitter a year or more ago, right around the time he himself offered manny 40 million with no take from the money, but no ppv either. I'm wondering if he wished he would have taken it now since back to back loses and his win over a subpar opponent.
  19. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Valued Member

    No offense bro, and I don't mean to sound egotistical at all by saying this, but I don't think any us "regulars" who have been posting here in the boxing forum have such a novice-understanding of the sport to be swayed by simple marketing strategies. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my experience, I've found that it's usually the people who don't know enough about a sport who are convinced by marketing tactics on what to believe, as opposed to those who completely ignore all that, watch a fight/game, and form their own opinions through their own technical expertise. I enjoy discussing these topics with the crew here because I believe everyone who has been posting in this section regularly has that technical expertise/understanding.

    But that topic aside, I don't know anyone who does think Canelo is already at his potential. His ability to grow and adapt through out each fight (especially in his fight against Austin Trout) made me a fan of his. He HAS grown. He has a ton of potential and he has been proving it. Floyd has a habit of making great boxers look worse, and frustrates the hell out of them. I would like to see Canelo continue to fight more A-Class fighters because he's ready for them. Canelo and Cotto would make a great fight, and Cotto is a great fighter.
  20. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Valued Member

    Good analysis, man. But as for backing off against Rios, do you remember when he did that against Margarito as well? He kept looking at the ref the last 2 or so rounds to stop the fight because his face was a bloody mess. We are seeing Pacquiao the Politician now, not Pacquiao the Fighter. I some times wonder where his devastating strength went as well (as you mentioned in an earlier post), but his skill is still pretty sound.

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