I am not sure that the KKW is still about inclusion/unification. The KKW is a govt controlled body or a MA org that is overseen by the govt or a MA entity that a national law had to be passed to clean it up. The KKW was about inclusion & unification in the 1970s, as they did a great job of it, for sure. However there was a written & signed agreement in 1982 between the ITF & WTF that was never executed, why? Why did they not honor an agreement that then negotiated & signed? How is that being inclusive? The WTF's posture is that anyone can join the WTF. You can do as you wish in your schools, but become members for sports purposes & you can compete. The ITF is about having their own system & it is natural or understandable to me want to control it, why not? The ITFers are poisoned by untruths that Gen. Choi perpetrated to further his political agenda AND have been seriously hurt by actions of the KTA, KKW & WTF, as directed by brutal dictators, along with the long arm of the KCIA that reached around the world to suppress, kidnap & pressure Koreans in order to keep military dictatorships intact & to advance their agenda! I think that non ITFers need to consider some of this. I feel that TKDin should no longer fight decades old battles that were 1st waged due to nasty Korean politics, especially since the situations no longer exist & they were never our battle to begin with! I believe you & have no reason to doubt you, as you are & always have been a perfect gentleman in what I recall with your postings. The 2 styles can't merge & probably won't. I think it is not practical for many reasons. HOWEVER now Olympic sport TKD faces a difficult challenge to remain in the Olympics post 2016. The vote comes in 2013 for 2020. The IOC must eliminate 1 of the current 26 sports. Then they have to add 3 in from the waiting list of 8. The next few months is critical for them & really for all TKD. I am certain that there will be new talks between the ITF & WTF. It would make sense that the new talks do not take the old road of merging, as it is unworkable IMHO & they collective experiences of meeting 11 times at the table with no real results. The upcoming change in the SK Presidential administration should also play a part in renewing negotiations. Stay tuned!
I agree with this completely! Please allow me to expand: The family had a major rift decades ago. The Grandparents stopped talking a long time ago. They had kids who were forced to stop talking & seeing their cousins as well, even though they never fought with their cousins, but their parents did. Now their children are saying (or should be saying, as I am!), Hey I want to meet my cousins! I never did anything to them & they never hurt me. Our Grandparents who started this family feud are dead. Why are we fighting, ignoring our on family?
I feel comfortable sharing anything about it. I'm fairly sure it'll be more a cultural experience and social event than a hardcore academic forum (given that the academic content is one day of the three), but I'll share what my experience afterwards The 70 million figure I've heard from the Kukkiwon and this only refers to Kukkiwon Dan holders. It doesn't include other Taekwondo styles. The figure comes from their system that has the list of dan holders. When you get a Kukkiwon Dan certificate it has a cert number on it, you keep this same number when you increase your dan rank. It definitely doesn't include Kup rank students. I don't know if the ITF figures do include other styles and I don't know if they're talking membership or dan holders. I didn't think Taekwon-do was that big in North Korea I must admit. Then again, I've never been and they aren't generally a country forthcoming with information.
Please remember that the Kukkiwon and WTF are different organisations. The Kukkiwon is still about inclusiveness, as I understand it. I'll see if I still get this vibe when I go there in a week or so. I agree. Thanks. I readily do offend people on internet forums, I can be very argumentative. However, I was intending it here, hence my apology. Fair enough. I must admit, I think the success of London 2012 (generally spectators thought it was great, it all went smoothly without major controversies, countries got their first Olympic medals in Taekwondo, etc) will help it keep it's place. After Beijing I was worried for it, but I think London 2012 has helped a lot. I don't follow SK politics, but I know it will affect things...
Are you telling me that the KKW has 70 million BB holders? I find that hard to comprehend as I understand it they would want to include all students, no matter the rank so they can show the world the huge following TKD has. I heard that the figures SK puts out was based upon estimates & projections of all TKD students, no matter the style.
It was my understanding that it was BB holders as they don't have any records of Kup holders. However, again, I'll ask when I'm in Korea. Cheers, Andy
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent "I am not sure that the KKW is still about inclusion/unification. The KKW is a govt controlled body or a MA org that is overseen by the govt or a MA entity that a national law had to be passed to clean it up. The KKW was about inclusion & unification in the 1970s, as they did a great job of it, for sure. However there was a written & signed agreement in 1982 between the ITF & WTF that was never executed, why? Why did they not honor an agreement that then negotiated & signed? How is that being inclusive?" Yes Sir you are right. I do know that, but in this case I was referring to 1982. As you & others may know the KTA was led by Dr. Kim Un Yong, the father of Olympic TKD as their 6th president since 1971. When the KKW was opened in 1972 he became president of that as well. The following year they formed the WTF & he was that president as well. So he wore all 3 hats for a very long time. His signature was on all the certs & the design & content of the certs changed from time to time. At times they had more than 1 or logo on them. So it caused some confusion, but it didn't matter as Dr. Kim was the head of SK TKD period. So when they signed the agreement in 1982 to merge with the WTF it was signed by their Secty Genl. It included sports & BBs promotions. Most everyone that was around in those days looked at it simply as ITF & WTF. It was not until a couple of years before the big scandals that rocked the SK TKD world that Dr. Kim gave up his position as KTA president. But he was still KKW & WTF president until he was arrested, tried, convicted & served time in prison for his crimes. It was after this happened that the KKW & WTF were led by 2 different people for the 1st time ever. This was when people started to notice the difference or make the distinction, as the relations were very bad between the 2 groups for many years. This was why the SK National govt had to step in & pass a law that forced the removal of a convicted gangster from the presidency of the KKW. The relations are better now, but they remain separate. I think it has as well. It will face a uphill battle to remain, but it did help its case in London for sure. There will be big changes facing the TKD world next year. Look for the WTF to issue their own BBs, the KKW to weaken & the new TKD Park to become the new TKD world academy, more closely aligned with the WTF or actually under the WTF in some manner. As does the change in leadership in NK. Look for new talks to start between the ITF & WTF. The timing is now, as Olympic TKD is in a bind. While I am not sure anything will become of it, next year is critical. I am mixed with my feelings if TKD should remain in the Olympics or even if the ITF should try to be part of the Olympic movement.
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent "Are you telling me that the KKW has 70 million BB holders? I find that hard to comprehend as I understand it they would want to include all students, no matter the rank so they can show the world the huge following TKD has. I heard that the figures SK puts out was based upon estimates & projections of all TKD students, no matter the style." That would be great! But you do follow my logic right? I mean after all if I was in Korean tourism or cultural promotions I would include all students, not just those the KKW certified. Don't you agree?
I'm lost... You said "I am not sure that the KKW is still about inclusion/unification". I replied with "The Kukkiwon is still about inclusiveness, as I understand it. I'll see if I still get this vibe when I go there in a week or so.". ??? I was predicting something similar. When the WTF launched their own "WTF Athlete Licence" I saw this as the end of requiring Kukkiwon dan certificates to compete, migrating WTF Taekwondo away from Kukkiwon Taekwondo as a pure martial sport to the KKW's art. Also, when the WTF opens Taekwondowon with it's new "World Taekwondo Academy" there, I wondered if again that would be the end of the Kukkiwon or if that would be the pure sport academy to the Kukkiwon's technical martial art academy. Then I've heard others say that the Kukkiwon has had approval to be demolished and rebuilt on it's existing site once Taekwondowon is open. I don't know what's going to happen, but it's certainly a time for change...
Ok sorry again. I meant that the KKW was about inclusiveness in the 1970s when they were consolidating the Kwans into the KKW. However they have never been respectful to the ITF nor have they acknowledged the vast expansion & worldwide following that they grew. Now much of the lack of disrespect was directed by the military dictatorships, the KCIA & the like, to destroy the ITF because of Gen. Choi's political agenda & outspoken criticism of the dictatorships. But let us be clear, they wanted to destroy the ITF or absorb their members into the WTF/KKW. Now if you review Korean politics, the climate changed after the 1st democratically elected civilian presidents began in the early 1990s. In 2000 big changes happened which led to exchange of demo teams between the 2 Koreas & a series of merger talks with the ITF & WTF. This broke off, but we shall see what will happen as the time will now present additional opportunities with the olympic situation & new president coming to SK & a new leader just taking over in NK. Yes Sir, very interesting times indeed! I thought that the land there was so valuable they would make office building or luxury flats. But I for one would much rather preserve the historic KKW building instead of knocking it down & maybe renovating it. It is a wonderful structure. It would be a shame for it to disappear, even if it was rebuilt new. JMHO
I'd go for this too. I'd love for ITf and WTF to stop poking at each other, and get back to what TKd originally was. I don't want some 2nd dan guy telling me adamantly that upper block is a block. I don't want to be taught an x-block vs knife strike....I'd love for half the instructors I have seen to actually know what each move in any given pattern is REALLY for and not just reciting what their teacher said. I think asking for one ITF TKD is too narrow a focus, if you are going to sort the job out-do it properly
Yes and No, I don't think the ITF could seriously try and work anything out with the WTF un till it got its own house in order. After some thought on this, I don't actually want the ITF and the WTF to merge I don't think there would be a benefit. Stop trying to drag each other down, most definitely, have a better understanding , again sure. Even make it so ITF'rs don't have to change org to get into the Olympics, like Jade Jones did, you got my vote. But thats about IMO. (btw I have sent out those emails about member numbers waiting for responses) Raz
Quote: Originally Posted by PASmith "Depends what the standardisation you're aiming at is IMHO. I still see TKD people ingnoring grappling and more holistic training in favour of increasingly abstract sparring and self introspection based on aethestic and other atrbitrary criteria. It's still all basically patterns with no real applications. It beggars belief that someone like Stu Anslow is still a relative TKD outsider plowing his own furrow. What he advocates as TKD should be mainstream and if TKD orgs were standardising and unifiying something similar to how he trains I'd be all for it. But they aren't." Mr. Anslow is IMHO a great example of someone who follows the ITF TKD syllabus, even more fully than many ITFers. He seems to get where he is by using his brain & thought process centered around SD. I do pretty much the same, but get there by following the written instructions of Gen. Choi. ITF TKD is supposed to have a certain level of focus on SD. But far too many ITFers spend way too much time on patterns & think incorrectly that tournament sparring is free sparring. Free sparring according to Gen Choi is when both sides are "FREE" to use any & all available means for attack & defense, essentially open combat or anything goes. But few if any really do this! If there was ever a time for ITF & WTF cooperation it is now, as TKD faces stiff challenges in their effort to remain in the Olympics.
(Please let us know about the responses) The ITF really does not need to get their houses in order to work out anything with the WTF. The WTF uses that as an excuse as to who or what faction they have to negotiate with or listen too, to actually avoid discussions with the ITF. This is mostly done IMHO due to Korean politics, as merger talks have always had to be done under the respective Government Ministers of Unification of the 2 Koreas. So this posture was adapted IMHO as a good reason to get out of discussions by the WTF, as the current SK President took a very hard stance towards NK, ending many joint efforts & initiatives, including TKD talks. Look for this to change, as SK will have a NEW president very soon, as the current one will be term limited (1 5 year term only) out at the end of this year. Additionally the WTF will need the support of the ITF-NK, NK itself & their IOC Member, Prof Chang Ung to help insure TKD continued inclusion in the Olympics. Please remember that the Courts have already decided that the ITF-NK is "The ITF" according to the Austrian Justice system. I see that the ITF-V have already been paying to court legal fees as the losing side. So it is the ITF-NK that will be talking with the WTF. It really has always been that way, this was why Gen Choi did what he did. When it comes to TKD in the Koreas, it was always about SK & NK TKD, or the WTF & ITF-NK. That was, is & will remain the political reality.
British Tae Kwon Do??? So, you and a lot of other people would like ONE ITF in the British Isles? I was of the opinion that you already had that under FGM Rhee. As with the Korean politics so to there are politics all over the world regarding who should be the president of ITF. The reason that the other masters Oldham,Oliver etc are not with FGMR is that they all want to be in charge.Remember these guys have changed affiliations a number of times, possibly for personnel gain. I would like to see the return of Tae Kwon Do to it's rightful place,and taught as it was originally taught. I also believe that the art is not taught in the same way.Many masters have made changes in the way they teach Tae Kwon Do because they think that they are right.This is not the way to teach what Grand master Choi presented to the world. Just my opinion, like it or not.
Negative Ghost, Well I agree with some of what you said there. However GM Rhee left the ITF and subsequently the UKTA. There is a thread on this 1 or 2 pages back. Raz
FGMR Hi Raz, Yes, FGMR did resign from ITF, but that was only recently.After the way he was treated by the council can you blame him. It should have remained one Tae Kwon Do from the beginning.So many breakaways and disagreements and dreams of glory by certain masters doomed ITF years ago. Tae Kwon
Im really keen to talk about TaeKwon Do in the UK, I must go shopping just now! However my skype is below, id be interested to have a chat. Ill be back in 3 hours or so. Can I assume you train somewhere in the UK? Raz
Back, I think your mixing up the UKTA and the ITF, He resigned from the ITF because of politics , he had to leave the UKTA as chief instructor because he was not part of the ITF anymore. Raz
I think that people leave orgs for all kinds of reasons, including the org or people in it or running it are not doing so in a manner conducive to positive mutual relationships. (Not to be construed as pointing any specific fingers, general comment only)
