Older Martial Artists and Tests

This is an issue raised in another thread about grading to 4th Dan.

With older people who are past their physical prime, and are just starting in martial arts, should the testing be any less rigorous and demanding? Should the required standard from them be any lower?

This question is particularly aimed at people who believe younger people shouldn't be allowed to grade and such because of lesser physical abilities.

In the same regard how about people who are excessively unfit? Should they be treated differently to older martial artist who could never regain their fitness due to their advanced age?

 

Thats one of the reasons I stopped taking TKD, to grade for 3rd dan I was required to do a scissor kick breaking a board with each foot. Seems my torn cartilage disagreed with what I wanted to do so I was told I would never promote even though I could do everything else....

 

So if you had torn your cartilage after you graded to third Dan, would they have taken your rank away from you, saying you are not worthy to hold the rank? I don't think they would, and frankly, I have a problem with that.

 

This is one of those times where, I think, it helps to keep ranking systems in perspective. To me, they should measure how a person is progressing toward their potential. The potential of an older adult is obviously different from that of a teenager. And an older adult is often overcoming a great deal just to get results that a teenager takes for granted. So who am I to tell them that what they've accomplished doesn't count?

I think that's a misuse of a grading system. We get too hung up on the sanctity of the belt. Would I want to give away black belts? Of course not. But am I more impressed with the young'un who can drop straight into the splits than I am with the older gentleman who works very hard to kick at hip level? No.

People take belts as a shorthand for who's better than whom. To me, that question should be settled by performance. Not belts. I'd rather see belts serve as an indication for who pours themselves into their practice.

I'd also be interested to hear how people's views on this change as they themselves age.


Stuart

 

This is a bit of a silly comment, just think for a second and apply it to academic education. I sure as hell can't speak french at a GCSE level but i dont lose that qualification because at the time it was earned, same with my first degree, i cant remeber the subject matter in the detail i did when i was doing it but again i can still use the letters after my name.

IMO these things as with martial arts grades show what u have achieved, no-one in any field maintains a static level, things fluctuate over time.

 

Yes, but if you had been learning french, but had a defect with your vocal cords, and couldn't do the oral, would they not change the rules to allow you to take the test regardless, but with modified rules?

Testing at GCSE level is desgined to test your ability at school, hardly qualified to do anything.

Lets take a look at black belt grading with the parallel university instead, something a bit more suited to it.
If you studied to become a doctor perhaps and passed. But a few years down the line you had lost your abilities as a doctor, you were quickly found out and your licence to practice medicine was revoked, because you were essentially dangerous.
So the fact is that given they won't take away a third Dan due to a knee problem, shows that it is in fact not a necessary part of being a third Dan, and thus shouldn't stop a person unable to perform those actions, from grading.

 

Being a doctor and having other qualifications are a little bit different - or the same depending on how you look at it.

A doctor will always have the title of doctor no matter how long ago they actively practised and even if they have had their medical license revoked. It's a symbol of them putting the hard yards into getting the qualification and evidence that they know how to think like a doctor. I know doctors that once achieved their pHd did not continue with their career. But they are still 'Dr. Smith'.

The same with rank. You will still be a third dan even if you haven't practised MA in 5 years. Sure, you won't be able to do the things you ued to do due to lack of practise and training but you put in the effort at the time.

With regards to age, you can say the same thing with disability, body type and fitness. Do I believe the same thing should be expected of every student? No.

Every body will have their strengths and weaknesses. Some people will be naturally small with less muscle mass. They can't do anything about it, so why should you expect feats of strength.

The instructor or person taking the test should know the student well enough to properly gauge improvement in all areas of training. Then take into account all areas and see if they add up to the grade. For higher grading when you are before a panel of people you have just met it's more complicated. But you have to trust that from their higher experience, they will know what to expect from someone of that age or other limitations. It should really be done on a case by case basis.

 

A quick thought: I see a difference between something like age and fitness level. Students should still push themselves to achieve something. And fitness is part of that. If someone COULD, with work, achieve a certain fitness level, then I think it's part of the teacher's job to recognize and account for that. Laziness and the natural passage of time are NOT the same thing.

 

I agree, I asked that question to help define the view people have on permanent disability versus fixable deficiencies.
Sounds like we share similar views.

 

Sounds like it, yeah. Testing should be cause for someone to push themselves. My stand is just predicated on the idea that, pushing themselves, different people are going to get different results. But it's the pushing that ought to be acknowledged.

I see that as being different from a surgeon who develops tremours in his hand, for instance. Because a surgeon performs a concrete, definite function. And if he's unable to perform that function properly, then he can't be a surgeon. (He doesn't lose the honorific "Dr." or anything. But he can't perform the specific functions of that role.)

There's no equivalently specific function for a martial artist. It's often a hobby. And even when it's more serious than that, say a teacher, it's still possible to be an excellent teacher without being able to perform everything. As I mentioned--here or elsewhere--I've had one teacher who walked with a cane and another who was wheelchair-bound. Two of my best teachers ever.

"Fixable deficiencies." I like that. And I have a lot of them to sort out before I'm able to test for another rank.


Stuart

 

I think that an instructor should know his students well enough to be able to judge how they are progressing, and not rely and a set of techniques that are required to be a certain grade. In my school techniques account for only a part of what is required to obtain a grade. For each grade you must be at a certain level both physically and technically, have a good knowledge of what is required, have the right attitude, and show enough effort.

If a student cannot reach the bar in one or two of these criteria, then they should be excelling in other areas. But if a student consistently fails to reach the levels across the board then they are not at the level.

Thats the way we try to work it at our club, and it gives people who may not otherwise be able to progress, a chance to move forward in the system.

 

I agree completely. It's how it's done at my club as well.

For example, there are things I know lower grades can perform better than I can. Also, there are some things I know I am better at than grades higher than me. It all evens out in the end.

If you can't physically do a technique needed for a grading for whatever reason, my opinion is that you should still be able to understand and be able to explain the principles of it. Or possible choose another equivalent technique instead to show off.

To Southpaw, there is more to a grading than just physical demands, heart and good understanding. So I would say no to your question.

 

If that's all you needed to grade in a particular martial art, regardless of how 'traditional' it is, then I would stay clear of that art.

 

Yeah, I think other things should count.

Like I was saying, in my club when we are looking at a student for grading there are multiple aspects of their training that is taken into consideration.

1. Technique - Being able to do the techniques/kata at a level of that grade.

2. Physical Ability - Things like speed, power, endurace and flexability.

3. Knowledge - Understanding not only the underlying principles of tecnniques, kata, strategies and tactics; but the ability to keep there mind open and look for new meaning. Also where they are unable to perform techniques the ability to understand them, explain them, and offer alternatives that they can perform, in a situation that may require those techniques.

4. Attitude - Have the right focus and mentallity towards training, and the art. Respect and ettiquette comes in here, understanding why things are the way they are.

5. Effort/Motivation - In most cases this is one that will tip the scale. If people cannot meet any standard, they have to be trying hard to reach them before they will even be considered for a grading. Without looking at disabities or other 'non-fixable deficiencies', a person who is not at a level and is content to sit there, is not ready to grade.

Like I said, these are just some of the things that my sensei takes into consideration when we are grading. If your falling short in one or two, you can show your are ready by excelling at others (as long as can also show you are still strving to better yourself in others). But, if you are failing to reach the levels, and are not putting those efforts elsewhere, then you simply are not ready.

 

I totally agree. My tkd instructor has no prob whatsoever with any dan gradings i take even though i'm not as fit or flexible as some of the other b/belts and have a weak knee from a m/cycle accident .I make sure i excel in other areas.