Hi, I wonder if anyone out there can offer some advice or point me in the right direction. I am (have been for years) doing research on "OLD OKINAWAN KATA'S". I mean "OLD", "ORIGIN VERSIONS." (they have been changed so many times, this may not be possible) Any help would be appreciated. web-sites.?, ???????? REGARDS GOJUTEJUTSURYU.
HI THERE, I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT YOU CONTACT DEREK RIDGEWAY IN WOLVERHAMPTON, DEREK IS A KATA EXPERT, HE REALLY KNOWS HIS STUFF ! DROP HIM AN E MAIL, I AM SURE HE WOULD BE PLEASED TO HELP. IF YOU CANT TRACE HIM ON THE WEB, LET ME KNOW AND I WILL FIND YOU AN ADDRESS. BEST WISHES, STEVE PRIOR.
Patrick McCarthy seems to be the man for this area. I'm sure a quick Google search for him will bring you lots of useful info. Hey Steve.....
"Original" kata are gone, don't try to hard looking for them, you won't find them. Their are older sources on kata, and some of the more modern kata can be seen in original form, but the really old ones original versions are long gone. On McCarthy, he does show "old versions" but they are more a recreation of what he thought they could have been rather then what they where put together from different sources. Some seem to think he's the great white master of karate, others think he's mostly full of.... Make your own call. Older versions are possible, old-style versions are possible, but original are not likely.
Derek Ridge, ? I used to train with a Derek Ridgeway in the 60's and 70's. Have lost touch with him. I would really appreciate If you could e-mail me his details >gojutejutsuryu@hotmail.com< Thanks a ton MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU. gojutejutsuryu
Patrick has re-created a great many kata based upon his research. Nothing wrong with this as long as you totally open and honest about it and not try to link it to some long dead past master. McCarthy's research is enviable but I feel he as a person leaves a great deal to be desired. No doubt he feels negatively about me (and a great many others so I'm in good company!) As for old kata, they do exist but one has to look beyond "Karatedo" and to the older Quanfa traditions. One can look to the Taolu (forms) of several Gongfu styles to see what could be considered the forerunners of many of Karate's kata. We for example in the KOBGK Paihequan Wuyangkuang International teach what is widelt thought to be the original Sanchin (Pah Puh Lien), the original Tensho (Ba Bu Lien Er Lu), Chukyo (Zhongkuang) and Ershibada (Nepai/Nipaipo). Cheers!
Paihequan, Thank you so much for the time and trouble. VERY INTERESTING !. It all makes sence somehow, I mean, Master Chojun Miyagi trained for (+/-) 13 years in China, the influences obviously would rub off. Thanls once again. Domo arigato. MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU. gojutejutsuryu.
Gojutejutsuryu: No problem. Please understand that the arts are alive and creative. In Chinese philosophy, the art must be creative otherwise they are considered to be dead. The original forms do exist but are known to very few.
Hello, I'm new here, and I wanted to introduce myself first, but I had'nt permission to access the new thread page or something. Does anyone know why? I'm from Holland, so I might make some mistakes with my English. I'm 17 years old, and I practise Kyokushinkai karate for 3 years now. It's really my favorite sport (actually, I can't live without martial arts anymore! In Holland there are not very much girls of my age who practise Kyokushinkai karate. In my club just one! And I'm member of a Dutch martial arts forum, and I'm the only one who practises Kyokushin there. So, I'm seeking other kyokushinkai karateka's. But I'm also interested in other styles and other martial arts. Well, my favorite kata is maybe (I'm learnig now every time more beautiful and complicated kata's) 5th pinan and Saiha, but that will change soon, I think. It's just that I've seen more wonderful ones, but I don't know their names, and I can't (yet) do them myself. Osu, Aafke
Welcome Ohtar You'll be pleased to hear that there is another Kyokushinkai stylist on the forum called Kyokushin_girl! I know just how you feel about Martial Arts and wouldn't be without it either these days. I'm not sure why you experienced problems with accessing pages, but there are 2 other forums here that you can only post on if you're a member and I know there are a couple of closed threads on the forum recently too. Please let us know if you experience any other problems. Nice to have you on-board and look forward to hearing more from you.
Oes Othar, Re: Old Okinawan Kata's. Welcome to the forum, hope you stay for the long haul, Great Kata's "Pinan 5" and "Saiha / Saifa". Excellent hidden pressure poiny strikes in both. ENJOY" MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU. gojutejutsuryu.
Original Sanchin: An ancient Five Ancestors Crane-Fist maxim describes the importance of Pai Puh Lian stating: “Lien kun Pai Puh Lian ki, Pai Puh Lian, lien kaw si” which translates as “Begin your training by practicing Pai Puh Lian and don’t stop practicing Pai Puh Lian until your very end”. Pai Puh Lian is a signature form of the Southern Shaolin Gongfu styles originating out of the Fukien Province in China. It is seen within the Fukien Gongfu styles such as White Crane-Fist, Monk-Fist and Five Ancestors-Fist. The first recorded mention of Pai Puh Lian is within Article #1 of the ancient “Bubishi” text under the heading of “Developing Inner Strength Through the Quan”. The kata itself may be traceable back through the murky mists of time to the originator of the White Crane-Fist style, Fang Qiniang, although a popular yet unconfirmed story of folklore believes that it was the monk “Bodiharma” who developed Pai Puh Lian as a means of training the spiritual recluses residing at the now famous Shaolin Temple. There may be some ‘substance’ within this tale of lore as Pai Puh Lian did not embody combative principles until adopted for same by the Shaolin Temple monks. We do know that Pai Puh Lian can be traced to the ancient Daoist (“Way”) priests of China. Pai Puh Lian was originally used to charge the body bio-electrically with “Qi” to develop, internalise and expel “Qi” (internal energy). It teaches an unification of the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of man and is sometimes known as the “three wars” or “battles” because of this aspect. On a defensive level, Pai Puh Lian uses the techniques of deflection, trapping, seizing, joint-locks, neck breaks, and piercing strikes to pressure points. Like most Southern Chinese Crane-Fist forms Pai Puh Lian stress the use of the ‘pidgeon-toed’ stance emphasising stability and resiliency. Yabiku Takaya Soke regards Pai Puh Lian as being a “San-nen Kata” (three year kata) meaning it should be practiced every day for three years stating Pai Puh Lian “means Ju (soft) suppresses Go (hard)”. Original Tensho: Ba Bu Lien Er Lu (“Rotating / Returning Palms”) Of the well known White Crane Masters of this century, Xie Zhong Xiang is perhaps the most famous. Having learnt from Pan Yu Ba, Xie Zhong Xiang became the first generation master of the Whooping Crane. The founder of Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate Do - Chojun Miyagi, was a student of Higashionna Kanryo, who learnt White Crane from Xie Zhong Xiang. Okinawan’s also refer to Xie Zhong Xiang as Ryuruko. Master Huang Sheng-Shyan also learnt Fujian White Crane directly from Xie Zhong-Xiang, from the age of 14. After a few years of personal tutorage, Huang Sheng-Shyan still only in his late teens, was sent by Xie Zhong-Xiang to study full-time for two years with his eldest disciple Ch’en Shih Ting.In 1930 Master Huang went on to train with another famous White Crane exponent P’an Ch’un-Nien, who also began teaching him the use of medicinal herbs, and stimulated an interest in Huang for other Chinese Martial Arts. In pursuit of these Huang Sheng-Shyan moved to Shanghai, where he first began teaching White Crane. Ba Bu Liane Er Lu is considered by many historians to be the form which gave rise to Goju Karatedo’s “Tensho” form. Hua Pah Pu / Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu (“Flying Crane”) Arising from the Xie Zhong Xiang lineage, this form although following the same pattern as the previous forms, introduces double arm movements in imitation of a crane in flight. It utilises a unique sequence involcving the Metal Hands as well as a double-hand form similar in fashion to Goju’s “Tensho”. It is an essential energy form worthy of great in-depth study
Paihaquan (sp:?) [forgive me]. I am truely humbled at the knowledge. "Domo arigato gozaimashita" MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU. Thank you once again, I now believe that I am closing in on the scource. gojutejutsuryu.
